Independent tests of European oils

[volodymyr]

I have came across an Amsoil test of 5W-30 synthetic oils: http://www.amsoil.com/lit/g3115.pdf and I wonder if there any simular studies of European oils like Liqui Moly, Elf / Total, Selenia, ENI, Shell, Valvoline Ashland, etc?

The study seems to be objective and very informative.

 

[4wheeldog]

As with almost all Amsoil tests, my objection is that the tests are for parameters that do not apply to the application tested. There is no similar situation to a 4 ball wear test inside an engine.

Because they persist in putting this [censored] out, I do not buy their products. Simple.

 

[andrewp1998]

Originally Posted By: 4wheeldog
As with almost all Amsoil tests, my objection is that the tests are for parameters that do not apply to the application tested. There is no similar situation to a 4 ball wear test inside an engine.

Because they persist in putting this [censored] out, I do not buy their products. Simple.


I wont buy their products either.. RP,, Green earth and redline tell you for the most part what is in their oil! Amsoil does not!

 

[OneEyeJack]

The 4-ball wear test is completely valid if your engine oil operates at room temperature and is never circulates under pressure. If you engine oil operates at elevated temperatures and at least some of the system is under pressure and the oil circulates then an oil that does not perform well might still be a quality product and perform well in your vehicle.

 

[kschachn]

Yeah, that old thing. Another objective is to make sure that Amsoil comes out as the winner of nearly every test.

 

[HerrStig]

Do any of these small volume oil and additive companies have R&D departments the size of of Exxon or Shell?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Do any of these small volume oil and additive companies have R&D departments the size of of Exxon or Shell?


No. XOM and SOPUS are the biggest there are. And by a wide margin. Even a company like Ashland is tiny compared to those two.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Do any of these small volume oil and additive companies have R&D departments the size of of Exxon or Shell?


No but they have access to the recipes for whatever cert they want. They also buy base stock and add packs from the majors.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Do any of these small volume oil and additive companies have R&D departments the size of of Exxon or Shell?


No but they have access to the recipes for whatever cert they want. They also buy base stock and add packs from the majors.


Yes, they have access to the cookie cutter recipes to meet a specific spec. I think the difficulty is meeting a huge list of specs.... And while XOM, SOPUS and others certainly sell their base stocks to others, that doesn't mean they do that with their entire product portfolio. Shell isn't selling their GTL base at the moment for example, choosing instead to use it in house. Mobil markets a nice cross-section of PAO bases for blenders but that doesn't mean they don't have a number of others reserved for their own products.

That said, everything is built to a price point and designed to make money. But the economies of scale dictate that if Mobil and Ashland are both blending a product to be sold at $8.00 Mobil can use more higher end ingredients and still make the same amount of money.

 

[bobbydavro]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Do any of these small volume oil and additive companies have R&D departments the size of of Exxon or Shell?


No. XOM and SOPUS are the biggest there are. And by a wide margin. Even a company like Ashland is tiny compared to those two.


BP Castrol have as much as shell and Mobil

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
The 4-ball wear test is completely valid if your engine oil operates at room temperature and is never circulates under pressure. If you engine oil operates at elevated temperatures and at least some of the system is under pressure and the oil circulates then an oil that does not perform well might still be a quality product and perform well in your vehicle.


Then heat the oil before performing the test. There is a guy on corvetteforum doing these tests with heated oil.

Sliding friction is sliding friction, you know, like a ring against a bore.

 

[camrydriver111]

I like how for their price comparison Amsoil says you can only go 5k on all other synthetic oils.

Yet the Mobil 1 EP bottle explicitly states 15k. lol

 

[bluesubie]

You guys make it sound like the four ball test was the only one in the above Amsoil oil comparison.

-Dennis

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Do any of these small volume oil and additive companies have R&D departments the size of of Exxon or Shell?


No. XOM and SOPUS are the biggest there are. And by a wide margin. Even a company like Ashland is tiny compared to those two.


BP Castrol have as much as shell and Mobil


Yes, forgot them on the list, my apologies. XOM used to be the largest by revenue but SOPUS is currently higher in that department. Though XOM still has the highest net income @ 32.58 Billion, followed by BP @ 31.77 Billion and then SOPUS @ 26.87 Billion.

Ashland I believe is the largest of the blenders and has a net income of 26 million in comparison. That was the point I was driving at.

 

[bobbydavro]

Don't confuse profit largly driven by upstream profits, with lubes R&D.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Don't confuse profit largly driven by upstream profits, with lubes R&D.


The amount of money the company makes facilitates their ability to invest in R&D. Whether that directly translates, well, we don't know, but if we look at SOPUS's latest base oil adventures, the PAO, AN and POE ventures with XOM Chemical....etc. These companies ARE investing heavily in R&D, and in ways, and in areas that a blender is unable to.

 

[weasley]

In any integrated oil company the costs and investments in the upstream businesses (exploration & production of crude oil, gas etc) will FAR outweigh anything in the downstream (refining and end products). You really can't look at bottom line figures to get any clue as to the investment model in lubricants.

The best way of looking at comparisons is by market share in the area you are concerned with. Here you will see XOM, Shell and BP trading blows, with different leaders in different markets.

 

[Cuore_Sportivo]

Still, I believe the aim of R&D is now not making exceptional oils but making them as cheap as possible, as long as they meet certain requirements...

 

[bobbydavro]

Most R+D is spent on keeping up with constantly changing industry and OEM specifications, this is driving formulation performance improvements.

Making it as cheap as possible isn't always the target as it's difficult to meet all these specifications and also have a simplified supply chain where cost of formulation isn't the only factor in a products cost.

Sure cost drives have been an enabler group3+ technology but don't see the removal of PAO as cost cutting. Additive technology today allows similar performance with Group 3 formulations.

 

[volodymyr]

I think we are deviating from the original question of the thread