OEM Specs vs Oil Vendor Meeting Said Specs

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CarbonSteel

CarbonSteel

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Trav and I were having a spirited discussion a week or so ago about the use of M1 AFE/EP 0W-20 in my 2010 Ford F-150 and his suggestion that I was not following Ford’s recommendations/specifications through the use of a 0W-20 oil when Ford recommends/specifies a 5W-20 oil (that meets WSS-M2C930–A). He further suggested that I am trusting XOM to meet the Ford specification (WSS-M2C930–A) instead of simply using a 5W-20 that meets WSS-M2C930–A. For reference, M1 AFE/EP 0W-20 meets or exceeds Ford specification WSS-M2C930–A and WSS-M2C945–A.

We were hijacking the OP’s post and so I thought I would start a new post and the point of this post is not to debate Trav and my points of view (or who is right/wrong). It is to ask does Ford (or any OEM for that matter) certify that oil made by any oil vendor who states it meets OEM specification “X” actually test or certify the oil to see that it does? To my knowledge, no OEM does this—I would even question if Ford does this for Motorcraft oil (currently made by COP).

Thoughts? Do OEMs test the oil or simply leave it to the oil vendor?
 
My understanding of it is that the oil manufacturers send data packages documenting the test results and then if the car manufacturer agrees that the oil passed all of the tests, the car manufacturer sends a letter endorsing the certification. That is how it is with some car makers. I'm not sure how Ford does it. The doc. in this link may mention it: http://www.api.org/Certification-Programs/Engine-Oil-Diesel-Exhaust-Fluid/~/media/Files/Certification/Engine-Oil-Diesel/Publications/150917editionfinal.ashx
 
If the oil manufacturer has tests to support that its oil meets API viscosity, wear, and fuel savings, then it can legally claim to cover the OEM specs.

Now for things like Dexos and DexronVI, etc, the use of the Dexos or DexronVI logo/license is only granted after the manf. has test results that definitively show it meets specifications.
 
As i posted on another thread...

Funny this was brought up. The old M1 site recommended 0w20 along with 5w20 for the Sonata 2.4. Now it just recommends 5w20. I called and asked why. I was told that Mobil now recommends 5w20. So... i asked what happens if something were to go wrong with someone's vehicle because of the old site's recommendation (for arguments sake)? I got the same line...'Mobil recommends 5w20 for that application'.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: wemay
Moral: follow your owner's manual recommendation.

If it were only that clear. Since M1 AFE "meets or exceeds" the Ford specification, how do you know where to draw the line?
 
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: wemay
Moral: follow your owner's manual recommendation.

If it were only that clear. Since M1 AFE "meets or exceeds" the Ford specification, how do you know where to draw the line?


I agree and hence removed that sentence but you quoted it prior to my omission.
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: wemay
I agree and hence removed that sentence but you quoted it prior to my omission.
wink.gif


cheers3.gif
 
Doesn't it also say its safe to use 0w20 AFE in any vehicle that requires 5w20?

Originally Posted By: wemay
The old M1 site recommended 0w20 along with 5w20 for the Sonata 2.4. Now it just recommends 5w20. I called and asked why. I was told that Mobil now recommends 5w20. So... i asked what happens if something were to go wrong with someone's vehicle because of the old site's recommendation (for arguments sake)? I got the same line...'Mobil recommends 5w20 for that application'.


Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
If it were only that clear. Since M1 AFE "meets or exceeds" the Ford specification, how do you know



With all three above examples and this confusion combined, I think the best bet is to use what the OM says whether it be required/ recommended viscosity and/ or substitutes.

*Do I think 0w20 would kill the OP's Ford? Absolutely not.. I am sure it'd do just fine. Take my advice as if a warranty issue would come up.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: wemay
Moral: follow your owner's manual recommendation.

If it were only that clear. Since M1 AFE "meets or exceeds" the Ford specification, how do you know where to draw the line?


It also meets or exceeds the requirements of API SN and the ACEA stuff
wink.gif
It depends greatly on the testing protocol I imagine. Anything a manufacturer can self-certify against and demonstrate to whatever body is necessary that the performance target is met appears to get the "meets or exceeds" statement. Anything that requires 3rd party approval/testing seems to get different language.

If the AFE product meets or exceeds the required Ford spec, then Ford would have no issue with you using it.

That said, Ford now has their own spec that specifically covers 0w-20 out.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
That said, Ford now has their own spec that specifically covers 0w-20 out.

-947? They should back spec--LOL (this is a little funny to me because of the back spec'ing that happens in most OEM engine families these days).
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
Mobil AFE is confusing to me, how can it be used in any application demanding 0w20 or 5w20 when the manufacturer make no provision for it whatsoever?

Thus the reason for the thread my friend! I was curious about that too and wondered about the OEM checking the oil vendors specifications. Maybe this is one of the reasons that GM created DEXOS?
 
Originally Posted By: Trav

Mobil AFE is confusing to me, how can it be used in any application demanding 0w20 or 5w20 when the manufacturer make no provision for it whatsoever?


The Ford "specs" are a series of tests above and beyond the basic API stuff. They are not really grade specific other than what Ford slaps them onto. It is quite possible (and I'm sure that's what happened) that Mobil tested the AFE oil against the relevant (at the time) Ford WSS spec, it passed, they demonstrated that to Ford and were able to carry the "Meets or Exceeds" requirements of that spec.

Since then, Ford has come out with its own spec specifically for their 0w-20 lubricant (which didn't exist before) so this may explain some of the confusion.

And as far as I know Ford is one of the few with an actual performance spec for xW-20. The Japanese marques just spec your basic API stuff, which the AFE oil exceeds by a mile.
 
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: Trav
Mobil AFE is confusing to me, how can it be used in any application demanding 0w20 or 5w20 when the manufacturer make no provision for it whatsoever?

Thus the reason for the thread my friend! I was curious about that too and wondered about the OEM checking the oil vendors specifications. Maybe this is one of the reasons that GM created DEXOS?


DEXOS has royalties, I'd look more to what the Euros do like Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Porsche....etc, which don't have that financial incentive attached to them and are, IMHO, more genuine in terms of being about actual performance and not about making money.
 
That could be one reason. I am a big fan of the dexos spec, it really makes oil buying easier for those people who have basically no idea.
I don't have the answers only questions but it seems a fair question as to why when the manufacturer specs or back specs engine and don't include 0w20 what has Mobil done with AFE that addresses the concerns they had about back specing it.

I understand some say the 0w part of the oil only means it has better cold start properties but then why on the Tundra for example wont they allow 0w20 but 5w2o is fine.
TGMO is claimed by some to work well in any xw20 application yet Toyota themselves don't go along with that in their publications yet Mobil does.

I agree that if Mobil claims it meets the spec for your engine there should be no issues with it, it does make me wonder about the discrepancies though.
My L67 specs 10w30 yet AFE claims 0w30 can be used in place of it. I don't know about using it in the old technology forced induction engine.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
The Ford "specs" are a series of tests above and beyond the basic API stuff. They are not really grade specific other than what Ford slaps them onto. It is quite possible (and I'm sure that's what happened) that Mobil tested the AFE oil against the relevant (at the time) Ford WSS spec, it passed, they demonstrated that to Ford and were able to carry the "Meets or Exceeds" requirements of that spec.

Since then, Ford has come out with its own spec specifically for their 0w-20 lubricant (which didn't exist before) so this may explain some of the confusion.

And as far as I know Ford is one of the few with an actual performance spec for xW-20. The Japanese marques just spec your basic API stuff, which the AFE oil exceeds by a mile.

I like this generic API Spec better than any manufacture spec. This generic API spec to me means their engine are good engineered so that any generic oil can be used as long as it is the right grade.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL


Since then, Ford has come out with its own spec specifically for their 0w-20 lubricant (which didn't exist before) so this may explain some of the confusion.

And as far as I know Ford is one of the few with an actual performance spec for xW-20. The Japanese marques just spec your basic API stuff, which the AFE oil exceeds by a mile.


Thanks for the explanation do you know if AFE meets Fords spec for 0w20?
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
Thanks for the explanation do you know if AFE meets Fords spec for 0w20?


Now Mobil claims Ford WSS-M2C947-A which is Ford's 0W-20 spec. They used to claim Ford WSS-M2C945-A which is Ford's 5W-20 spec. I have enough WSS-M2C945-A labeled 0W-20 AFE to finish out my warranty period. After that I really don't care. I'm sure that Mobil 1 0W-20 will protect at least as well as Motorcraft SynBlend 5W-20.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: Trav
Mobil AFE is confusing to me, how can it be used in any application demanding 0w20 or 5w20 when the manufacturer make no provision for it whatsoever?

Thus the reason for the thread my friend! I was curious about that too and wondered about the OEM checking the oil vendors specifications. Maybe this is one of the reasons that GM created DEXOS?


DEXOS has royalties, I'd look more to what the Euros do like Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Porsche....etc, which don't have that financial incentive attached to them and are, IMHO, more genuine in terms of being about actual performance and not about making money.


At least Dexos uses the money to fund the testing and certification program. How does the other manufacturers pay to test all of the oil companies that claim to meet those specs? Its hard to imagine that Mercedes, etc do it for free.

Even API has a royalty fee.
 
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
The Ford "specs" are a series of tests above and beyond the basic API stuff. They are not really grade specific other than what Ford slaps them onto. It is quite possible (and I'm sure that's what happened) that Mobil tested the AFE oil against the relevant (at the time) Ford WSS spec, it passed, they demonstrated that to Ford and were able to carry the "Meets or Exceeds" requirements of that spec.

Since then, Ford has come out with its own spec specifically for their 0w-20 lubricant (which didn't exist before) so this may explain some of the confusion.

And as far as I know Ford is one of the few with an actual performance spec for xW-20. The Japanese marques just spec your basic API stuff, which the AFE oil exceeds by a mile.

I like this generic API Spec better than any manufacture spec. This generic API spec to me means their engine are good engineered so that any generic oil can be used as long as it is the right grade.


I agree with both of you...problem is that when problems arise, someone has to initiate the change to make the baseline better.

People made engines before there was a grading system, and problems encountered made them specify what worked, which became a "specification"...

So building engines to SN/GF5 makes perfect sense.

But there would be no SN, or GF6 if it wasn't for pressure from someone, as SA worked pretty well at the time.
 
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