Oil for Honda CBR 600 F4i: JASO MA or JASO MA2?

[volodymyr]

Hello everyone,

I am choosing the next oil for my Honda CBR F4i (2001 year) and I am hesitating between JASO MA and JASO MA2.

The manual for F4i calls for API SE, SF, SG oils without mentioning JASO specification. Since my bike does not have catalytic converter I may stick with JASO MA. I've read somewhere that because of catalytic converters the JASO MA2 spec limits phosphors and this results in less engine wear protection.

As of now I have been using Castrol POWER 1 Racing 4T 10W-40 API SL, JASO MA2 with OCI 500 - 2000 km on a yearly basis. Now I am thinking of switching to Valvoline SynPower 4T 10W-40 API SG JASO MA.

I wonder, will I get more engine wear protection with JASO MA? I can see in Lubrizol comparison tool that API SL should do a better wear protection, but something tells me that this is only theory.

Also, if I am worried about wear protection, should I hunt for API SM? I can also get for the same price Valvoline SynPower 4T 10W-50 with API SM and JASO MA-2 but it's viscosity is slightly higher than the one recommended by Honda.

 

[DrDave]

I have a small fleet of Honda motorcycles. My oil of choice is the Amsoil 10-30 motorcycle oil. The bearing clearances are quite tight on those motors. I personally don't use 10-40 oil in my bikes. My UOA reports show excellent results.

Dave

 

[FastGame]

Doesn't your manual say to use one of the Honda oils ? Honda HP4, HP4S, GN4 are JASO MA. HP4M (moly) is JASO MB. The Valvoline SynPower 4T you want to use should be fine.

Quick google search shows Rotella T6 the popular choice in the US for that bike. What do you have in Switzerland that's T6's equivalent ?

 

[rrounds]

I ran Rotella Triple Protection 15/40 in my '04 R6, the T6 5/40 sheared down more and quicker than the 15/40. I had no clutch problem(slipping) and I could run the bike longer at the track before I had to change it out. Cost less, works better and it was better in my R6 than the T6. I do run the T6 in my '04 Goldwing and its fine in it, but my Goldwing is no R6.

ROD

 

[volodymyr]

FastGame,

Originally Posted By: FastGame
Doesn't your manual say to use one of the Honda oils ? Honda HP4, HP4S, GN4 are JASO MA. HP4M (moly) is JASO MB. The Valvoline SynPower 4T you want to use should be fine.


I just went through owner manual one more time. Nope, it does not mention anything about the oil rather than API SE, SF, SG and it's viscosity chart.

I think that any of these oils I mentioned should do fine. I am just trying to find the best oil among the list which will do the best engine wear protection. The specifications API SE, SF, SG and even SM are dinosaurs and do not see to provide such good wear protection as for example ACEA A3. You can compare specs at https://www.lubrizol.com/apps/relperftool/pc.html

So ... what is your opinion? Of course I can switch to 10W-30 but I never saw this oil recommended for F4i or CBR 600 RR engines ...

 

[volodymyr]

rrounds,

Originally Posted By: rrounds
I ran Rotella Triple Protection 15/40 in my '04 R6, the T6 5/40 sheared down more and quicker than the 15/40. I had no clutch problem(slipping) and I could run the bike longer at the track before I had to change it out. Cost less, works better and it was better in my R6 than the T6. I do run the T6 in my '04 Goldwing and its fine in it, but my Goldwing is no R6.

ROD


Thanks for your comment. I do not use the bike on track, however, when I use it I drive it hard after engine is warmed up. For me I think it is important to have a better cold flow than saving a few bucks on oil.

 

[volodymyr]

Looks like I found an oil with JASO MA2 and ACEA A3 spec: http://www.liqui-moly.com/liquimoly/produktdb.nsf/id/en_2592.html?OpenDocument&land=GB

It is quite rare to find ACEA specs in motorcycle oils ... I wonder why Castrol or Valvoline does not make such oils.

 

[FastGame]

volodymyr I understand your concern wanting the best for your motorcycle but, why are you so worried about the ACEA spec ? I don't know what oils are available where you live but that Valvoline is good oil. I don't know anything about the Liquimoly other than it looks good on paper.

I'm not an expert on oil other than my 45 years with bikes and what worked well for me. In the end it's what you feel comfortable with, there are oils that don't cost a bunch of money that protect well. rrounds gave an example that works for his R6.

 

[rrounds]

Originally Posted By: volodymyr
rrounds,

Originally Posted By: rrounds
I ran Rotella Triple Protection 15/40 in my '04 R6, the T6 5/40 sheared down more and quicker than the 15/40. I had no clutch problem(slipping) and I could run the bike longer at the track before I had to change it out. Cost less, works better and it was better in my R6 than the T6. I do run the T6 in my '04 Goldwing and its fine in it, but my Goldwing is no R6.

ROD


Thanks for your comment. I do not use the bike on track, however, when I use it I drive it hard after engine is warmed up. For me I think it is important to have a better cold flow than saving a few bucks on oil.

I don't use it to save money on oil, I use it so I don't have to replace or rebuild my engine as often. If you think Honda oil is good then use it, but I would suggest you go to a track and ask them what they use in their bikes. Honda oil will be way down the list if you can find one who uses it in the first place.

Please tell me about just one bike that had to be rebuilt because of "cold flow". If you warm up your bike before you "drive it hard" you could use a straight 50 weight oil and do no harm. I've been riding for over 45 years and have over 40k miles on tracks with all of the bikes I've had over the years. But you keep worrying about "cold flow".

Have a nice day and please use what makes you sleep better at night,
ROD

 

[volodymyr]

FastGame,

Originally Posted By: FastGame
volodymyr I understand your concern wanting the best for your motorcycle but, why are you so worried about the ACEA spec ?


Well, I guess I am too much hooked up with Lubrizon comparison tool https://www.lubrizol.com/apps/relperftool/pc.html and I can see that most of the API specifications are inferior to ACEA by many parameters. That being said, I realize that my motorcycle is old and it's marked price is quite low. I am simply trying to find a best balance between quality of oil versus it's price.

Originally Posted By: FastGame
I don't know what oils are available where you live but that Valvoline is good oil. I don't know anything about the Liquimoly other than it looks good on paper.


In fact, we got here most of the oils available in US such as Mobil, Valvoline (Ashland), Castrol, Petronas as well as some German oils like Liqui Moly, High Performer, Rowe, Racing Dynamic, etc. Liqui Moly is considered as premium quality oil and is usually highly popular in Europe.

Originally Posted By: FastGame
I'm not an expert on oil other than my 45 years with bikes and what worked well for me. In the end it's what you feel comfortable with, there are oils that don't cost a bunch of money that protect well. rrounds gave an example that works for his R6.


Thanks, this is very helpful advise. I will probably switch to Valvoline unless I find some bad looking UOA of it

 

[volodymyr]

rrounds,

Originally Posted By: rrounds
I don't use it to save money on oil, I use it so I don't have to replace or rebuild my engine as often. If you think Honda oil is good then use it, but I would suggest you go to a track and ask them what they use in their bikes. Honda oil will be way down the list if you can find one who uses it in the first place.


Thanks for your input. Well, I am sure that if I would use the bike on the track I would stick with some special oil. It's a whole new story which is beyond the subject of my original post.

Originally Posted By: rrounds
Please tell me about just one bike that had to be rebuilt because of "cold flow". If you warm up your bike before you "drive it hard" you could use a straight 50 weight oil and do no harm. I've been riding for over 45 years and have over 40k miles on tracks with all of the bikes I've had over the years. But you keep worrying about "cold flow".


Sorry if I was not specific on this matter. I would like to have cold viscosity 10W or 5W since occasionally I may use the bike during the winter. Overall my fear is that if I use 15W or 20W I will not be able to use it during the winter.

Normally I don't drive in winter but this year I got an exceptional case when I needed to.

 

[FastGame]

My 1981 Kawasaki 1000 went 32 yrs, 45,000 hard running miles using Vavoline 10W-40 dino oil. This past summer I tore the motor down so I could install big bore kit, hotter street cam, port & CC the head, new valve guides & seals and wield the crank so it wouldn't twist. The motor was clean as could be inside and every thing was still within spec. I'm still running the original clutch. The motor runs hotter with the big bore so I now use Rotella 15W-40 instead of the Valvoline. My Concours 14 is running Rotella T6 at the moment because of winter, this summer I'll use the Rotella 15W-40 and see how that goes.

If I had your bike I would run one of the Rotella oils or Valvoline and sleep well. If I were to spend more money on oil I would use Mobile 1 4T Racing, Redline, Motul or Amsoil if you can get that. I don't know about the others available where you live. If you are worried about cold flow the Rotella T6 seems to be a good fit.

Larry will be by shortly and he will sell you Mobile 1 0W-30...haha, it meets ACEA A1/B1 spec.

Have a good day sir

 

[Atesz792]

volodymyr,
You mentioned a viscosity/temperature chart previously.
What does it have to say about 15w oils? I'm only asking because mine (whole different bike though) says it's okay at&above -15°C.
Now you said you ride in the winter sometimes, and so do I, and I sleep well with Mobil Delvac MX 15w-40 in the crankcase, 'cause I know it's good even when I'm not. I mean... -15?! Who rides in that cold?

It meets all the ACEA specs you could want (including E7, which among other things means it's so shear stable that it stayed in grade during the 90 cycle torture test, while A3/B4 oils only have to endure 30 cycles), also Allison C4 (which includes a wet clutch transmission test) and API SL.
It can also be bought quite cheap. What's not to like?
PS.: If you try it & like it, look for the 20L barrel next time. That's what I'll do come spring

 

[CentAmDL650]

Velodymyr -

Support your local economy - buy Swiss oil from Motorex. For you application I would suggest the Top Speed 4T 10W40. It is rated API SG, JASO MA, and ACEA A3. I've seen it online in the states for as low as $58 US, so I would guess you could get it for even less there.

There are Swiss blending factory workers who are depending your support. What's not to love?

 

[volodymyr]

CentAmDL650,

Originally Posted By: CentAmDL650
Support your local economy - buy Swiss oil from Motorex.

[...]

There are Swiss blending factory workers who are depending your support. What's not to love?


After living in Switzerland for a while I can assure you that the "swiss quality" thingy is overrated. As for the Motorex oil. Yes, I did consider buying it, however if I search for people reviews of Motorex oils these things keep popping up: http://www.advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11870035&postcount=5

I also went through some non English speaking articles and the general feedback is that the oil is expensive, but average in terms of performance. People do tend to suggest Valvoline, Castrol and Motul.

P.S. This oil does not have ACEA A3. Please take a look at specs: http://www.motorex.com/index.cfm?oid=114...p;eintragId=153

 

[Luciano]

Originally Posted By: volodymyr
Hello everyone,I've read somewhere that because of catalytic converters the JASO MA2 spec limits phosphors and this results in less engine wear protection.


Hmm
I was reading the specification a few weeks ago. Didn't see that limit on P.
Anyway you can see for youself: http://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/4T_EV1105.pdf

The Castrol Power 1 seems to be decent oil. Where I am sir that is one of the most expensive oils you could find heh.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: DrDave
I have a small fleet of Honda motorcycles. My oil of choice is the Amsoil 10-30 motorcycle oil. The bearing clearances are quite tight on those motors. I personally don't use 10-40 oil in my bikes. My UOA reports show excellent results.

Dave


I agree with Dave... I don't believe you need a 40 or 50 weight to meet and exceed your
mileage expectations... there's mounting evidence that no one is wearing out their
engines despite running the free flowing 30wt...

The choice is yours but choosing a 30wt over a 40wt or 50wt is smarter because it will:

1)increase HP at the rear wheel (40wt cost 2/3 HP)(50wt cost 5/6 HP in oil drag)
2)quicken the throttle response coming out of the corners...
3)decrease over all operating temps...
4)increase the oil flow at the critical bearings...

Any one of 30 grade 100% synthetic motorcycle specific oils will meet
and exceed your mileage expectations...

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: volodymyr


The manual for F4i calls for API SE, SF, SG oils without mentioning JASO specification. Since my bike does not have catalytic converter I may stick with JASO MA. I've read somewhere that because of catalytic converters the JASO MA2 spec limits phosphors and this results in less engine wear protection.


Honda only recommends API ratings which sets minimum for performance
standards for lubricants... there is nothing in those early API SE SG
SH ratings that are motorcycle specific... SE SG SH are now obsolete
and although suitable for some older vehicles are more than 10 years
old they do not provide the same level of performance or protection as
the more up to date SL and SM specifications. so Mr.RC45's Mobil 1
0w30 is SM rated which according to the manual is an API oil that
"meets and exceeds" those old obsolete API standards... is your oil up
to date???


The following table shows the API specifications behind the letters...


SG - Introduced 1989 has much more active dispersant to combat black
sludge.

SH - Introduced 1993 has same engine tests as SG, but includes
phosphorus limit 0.12%, together with control of foam, volatility and
shear stability.

SJ - Introduced 1996 has the same engine tests as SG/SH, but
phosphorus limit 0.10% together with variation on volatility limits

SL - Introduced 2001, all new engine tests reflective of modern engine
designs meeting current emissions standards

SM - Introduced November 2004, improved oxidation resistance, deposit
protection and wear protection, also better low temperature
performance over the life of the oil compared to previous categories.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: volodymyr
Hello everyone,

I am choosing the next oil for my Honda CBR F4i (2001 year) and I am hesitating between JASO MA and JASO MA2.


I wouldn't hesitate because technically speaking there is no engine
oil that can not defeat a wet clutch in good working order... what is
confusing the issue is the fact that all motorcycle wet clutchs will
reach a point in their life and start to slip... no one complains
about clutch slip when the bike is new... but on about the 27K to 57K
range is when contaminants may build up to point where the clutch
begins to loose its grip... this is usually discovered by the owner
during WFO (Wide Fooking Open)throttle like at a track day... in error
one can blame the oil but its really the contaminants on the clutch
plates...

 

[DrDave]

I marvel at your ability to find and post those pictures. My old Harley really liked 10-30 Amsoil. These was a significant reduction in wear metals going from 15-40 to 10-30. There were no consumption issues. It certainly started easier. By easier I mean it spun over much faster. The motor seemed quieter, and Harley's need all the help they can get in that department.

I see you are an aviation guy as well. You fly an airplane with an upside down engine. BTW, I will have 29 cases of W65 lining my garage wall soon. I'm based out of W16. Would love to see your RC45.

We should chat.

Dave