Extreme drain intervals

[pitzel]

Haven't been on these forums for a long time, but coming back, it seems that things are heading in the right direction, ie: OCI's are generally creeping up.

Is there anyone else here who runs a truly 'extreme' OCI? Like for instance, I'm closing in on 40k miles (64k kms) since my last oil change, on Esso XD-3 0W-30 oil, preceeded by a 56k km (35k mi) OCI on a mixture of XD-3 0W-30 and Mobil1 5W-30. Engine is a GM 3.1L V6 code LH0 built in 1992.

Most of the UOA results I see, for lack of better words, have oil that has oodles of service left. Or very serious mechanical problems in the engine itself. There's very little middle ground.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: pitzel
Haven't been on these forums for a long time, but coming back, it seems that things are heading in the right direction, ie: OCI's are generally creeping up.

Is there anyone else here who runs a truly 'extreme' OCI? Like for instance, I'm closing in on 40k miles (64k kms) since my last oil change, on Esso XD-3 0W-30 oil, preceeded by a 56k km (35k mi) OCI on a mixture of XD-3 0W-30 and Mobil1 5W-30.

Most of the UOA results I see, for lack of better words, have oil that has oodles of service left. Or very serious mechanical problems in the engine itself. There's very little middle ground.


Serious mechanical problems?
No middle ground?

You've gotta pay close attention. I've not seen one with serious mechanical issues that I can recall off the top of my head,and I look over all that are posted for the most part.
I have seen the odd one that claims coolant intrusion,which I consider minor depending on how difficult the gasket is to access
Could you point out these used oil analysis that are showing severe mechanical issues. I'd like to know what a used oil analysis with a serious issue looks like.
And you'd need to find someone who's got trended data,because a single used oil analysis doesnt say much since nothing has been established and therefore it's imoosdible to conclude anything for certain except for the condition of the oil,which is exactly why uoa are done,to monitor wear.
And that's it

 

[Clevy]

So you must have a hybrid to run that kind of interval and if it's a hybrid miles isn't the best way to go about establishing a service interval.
Hours or gallons burned is more in line with that type of service.

 

[3800Series]

I wouldn't recommend 40k OCI. I will say however I dated a chick who did a 22k mile OCI (with conventional) without knowing it. She got the car had a oil change that day and never changed it afterwords. 6 years later the car is still running.

Take it how ever you like. Would I recommend it? Not a chance.

 

[MrQuackers]

Is that the Z24 Cavalier?

 

[Shannow]

azsynthetic's runs are always worthwhile just to see what's possible (measurable too).

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2863468/1

 

[pitzel]

Originally Posted By: Clevy

You've gotta pay close attention. I've not seen one with serious mechanical issues that I can recall off the top of my head,and I look over all that are posted for the most part.


There's been a few UOA's over the years which point to coolant ingress, excessive bearing or cam wear (ie: identified through excessive wear metals characteristic of such parts in specific engine models), or fuel metering issues. Which, if not corrected, will have quite significant effects on the serviceability of the engine in question.

But what I mostly see is the UOA forum filled with 5000-8000 mile samples, with nothing wrong with the oil. I see this over and over again, with some repeat posters even receiving such reports, and keeping the same interval despite the numbers clearly showing the oil has an enormous amount of service left.

Quote:

I have seen the odd one that claims coolant intrusion,which I consider minor depending on how difficult the gasket is to access


Difficulty of a repair has nothing to do with the necessity of a repair. Unless of course, the equipment is nearing the end of its economically useful life.

 

[pitzel]

Originally Posted By: MrQuackers
Is that the Z24 Cavalier?


No, its a W-body, ie: Grand Prix, Lumina, Cutlass Supreme, Buick Regal. Although the same engine did make an appearance in the Cavalier I believe (as I've seen a few in the junkyards over the years).

Yeah, I know, not even worth a grand anymore, but sure beats devoting capital to a new car. And we plate + insure 5 vehicles for less than $1000 all-in here annually. Lots of people spend more than that just on 1.

 

[pitzel]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
So you must have a hybrid to run that kind of interval and if it's a hybrid miles isn't the best way to go about establishing a service interval.
Hours or gallons burned is more in line with that type of service.


No, just a V6 mated to a 4T60 GM transaxle. 1/3rd of the car's life was short-trip driving by an elderly man in Saskatoon before I acquired it in the early 2000s.

 

[HKPolice]

I remember this guy on RFD forums, he keeps recommending 20k+ mile changes to everyone based on his experience with that ancient GM motor.

FYI, the GM 3.1L V6 LH0 only outputs 135-140hp so it is an extremely low reving, low stress motor by modern standards. Even a Honda 1.8L can push 140hp back in 2006 and most modern 3.5L V6s are outputting around 280HP which is DOUBLE the LH0.

According to wiki, the LH0 is also extremely reliable:
Quote:
The 3.1 L engine has retained an excellent reputation for reliability with some going well over 300,000 mi (482,803 km)


So yes, maybe with modern oils and such a tanky low stress motor you can run 40k mile intervals for 300k but it is NOT viable for modern high stress engines.

Want proof? check out http://www.reddit.com/r/Justrolledintotheshop
Almost every week I see pictures of sludged up seized motors after only 20-30K miles.

 

[pitzel]

Originally Posted By: HKPolice
I remember this guy on RFD forums, he keeps recommending 20k+ mile changes to everyone based on his experience with that ancient GM motor.


Not true.

Quote:

FYI, the GM 3.1L V6 LH0 only outputs 135-140hp so it is an extremely low reving, low stress motor by modern standards. Even a Honda 1.8L can push 140hp back in 2006 and most modern 3.5L V6s are outputting around 280HP which is DOUBLE the LH0.


True, but for most of the operating regime, they're putting out 20-30hp. Peak horsepower is largely a function of optimizing fuel input, dynamic adjustment to valve timing, forced aspiration, etc., etc. The GM 60-degree engine, in its updated form, was still sold well into the 2000s, and presumably similar characteristics with respect to the motor oil apply across most derivative engines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_60%C2%B0_V6_engine

Besides, if you look at torque growth in engines with similar displacements over the past 25 years, its been relatively minimal. I'd suggest that torque is a far more useful metric of comparing passenger car engine performance growth, than merely peak horsepower at some RPM setting that almost nobody is likely to ever have the opportunity to use due to legal limitations, tire limits, sanity, etc.

Quote:

So yes, maybe with modern oils and such a tanky low stress motor you can run 40k mile intervals for 300k but it is NOT viable for modern high stress engines.


The point of my post was -- do we know that, or not? The UOA's are coming back better than ever on the newer engines, with the newer oils. But it seems that we don't have much data in the UOA section on the outcome of extreme drain intervals in such engines.

Quote:

Want proof? check out http://www.reddit.com/r/Justrolledintotheshop
Almost every week I see pictures of sludged up seized motors after only 20-30K miles.


Seems to me that most incidences of such are associated with oil deprivation (or contamination through coolant gasket failure), rather than the oil itself. An operator issue, not an oil issue, as operators have the responsibility of ensuring proper oil quantity prior to departure no matter the oil change regime selected.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: pitzel
Originally Posted By: Clevy

You've gotta pay close attention. I've not seen one with serious mechanical issues that I can recall off the top of my head,and I look over all that are posted for the most part.


There's been a few UOA's over the years which point to coolant ingress, excessive bearing or cam wear (ie: identified through excessive wear metals characteristic of such parts in specific engine models), or fuel metering issues. Which, if not corrected, will have quite significant effects on the serviceability of the engine in question.

But what I mostly see is the UOA forum filled with 5000-8000 mile samples, with nothing wrong with the oil. I see this over and over again, with some repeat posters even receiving such reports, and keeping the same interval despite the numbers clearly showing the oil has an enormous amount of service left.

Quote:

I have seen the odd one that claims coolant intrusion,which I consider minor depending on how difficult the gasket is to access


Difficulty of a repair has nothing to do with the necessity of a repair. Unless of course, the equipment is nearing the end of its economically useful life.



I asked for examples. Wear metals on a single uoa without establishing trends first is less than pointless.
So please. Find examples instead of whatever absurd notions your selling.

 

[pitzel]

Originally Posted By: Clevy

I asked for examples. Wear metals on a single uoa without establishing trends first is less than pointless.


Well most engines in service today are mass produced or are derivatives of previously mass produced engines. The guys who write the reports at firms like Blackstone et al, as well as experienced interpreters of UOA can do a pretty decent job with just one sample. TBN, TAN, and absolutes of the wear metals give fairly solid indications of how close oil is to so-called 'condemnation values'.

I'm not criticizing anyone for their individual decisions. Just decrying the lack of good data available for what I would call "extreme drains". Of course, there are the various infomercials out there from certain oil vendors, claiming brand XXX went 100k miles without problems in some taxi-cab fleet, but unfortunately such claims are clouded with disclaimers galore, not to mention the conflict-of-interest associated with such.


Quote:

So please. Find examples instead of whatever absurd notions your selling.


I'm not selling anything. In fact, if people spent more effort to optimize their OCI's to a more realistic service life of the (often-premium) oils they're using, far less oil would be sold/consumed. And I won't even touch the problems associated with overly frequent oil changes on direct injection engines here as there are other threads for the topic.

 

[Oily_hair]

Originally Posted By: pitzel

Is there anyone else here who runs a truly 'extreme' OCI? Like for instance, I'm closing in on 40k miles (64k kms) since my last oil change, on Esso XD-3 0W-30 oil, preceeded by a 56k km (35k mi) OCI on a mixture of XD-3 0W-30 and Mobil1 5W-30. Engine is a GM 3.1L V6 code LH0 built in 1992.


On another forum I frequent someone was doing the same as you except they would only change the oil filter after so many miles.....are you doing the same?

 

[bigt61]

I had a 92 Lumina with that 3.1 V6 - very solid, but low power engine. My OCI's were 6k miles on whatever dino I had laying around. It saw 5W-30,10W-30,10W-40 and 20W-50. It was running fine when I sold it at 192K miles. Nice roomy car - cheap basic transport. My 94 Pontiac is the same - I can afford better, but I'd rather save the money and buy expensive food like steaks and fresh vegetables.

 

[toneydoc]

I hope that you are having to add some oil to keep it in safe zone. I hope you add a quart every 3k miles personally. At that rate you are keeping some fresh oil and additives in the engine. And it sounds as though you have an excellent engine.

Knew a female once that would buy a Jeep every 4-5 years or so. She would buy it, drive it, never have any service to engine, and then trade it in and buy another one when the engine was shot. She was a lawyer, made plenty of money and just did not care about the engine at all. Used them as disposable. Kinda sad.

There are some folks on the forum who are extending intervals out to 12-15 k miles or so. I do not know of any who would recommend 40 k intervals. If somebody did, I would disregard that recommendation immediately.

The only reason to go for a 40k interval is that you do not have $25 to your name to afford the oil change. Good luck with that interval. Check in from time to time and let me know how that engine goes.

 

[oliveoil]

Well, the OP has a point. If you've got a vehicle that isn't worth that much and you simply want to get a 50-150k+ out of it then maybe he's doing it right? Saving resources (oil time and energy).

 

[volodymyr]

pitzel,

Originally Posted By: pitzel


[...]

Is there anyone else here who runs a truly 'extreme' OCI? Like for instance, I'm closing in on 40k miles (64k kms) since my last oil change, on Esso XD-3 0W-30 oil, preceeded by a 56k km (35k mi) OCI on a mixture of XD-3 0W-30 and Mobil1 5W-30. Engine is a GM 3.1L V6 code LH0 built in 1992.



Well, if oil with correct specification is used, you should be fine. For example ( reference for GM specs: http://www.oilspecifications.org/general_motors_gm.php )

- GM-LL-B-025 specification allows oil to withstand 50'000 km of service life in two years for diesel engines
- GM-LL-B-025 specification allows oil to withstand 30'000 km of service life in two years for petrol engines

However, if you are speaking about conventional oil to be used at such big drain intervals this is probably a suicide for the engine.

That being said, I saw many cars in Switzerland where the oil was (Total Quartz 9000 5W-40) changed only once in 50'000 or 60'000 km and the owner was ready to give a warranty for the engine & transmission for 12 months.

OTOH, given the age of the car (1992) I assume the market price is very low (it would be around 600 $ in Switzerland). With this price of the car, I assume you can simply stop doing any service since it will cost you more than the price of the car.

 

[Nate1979]

I think there is some risk with extreme OCI that a cheap UOA will not show the true servicability of the oil. Are the additives still in their active form, cold performance lost, how about the additives that condition the seals, etc? As an oil reaches longer life its ability to counteract and suspend deposits is lessoned and possible to leave some crud in in high temp or low flowing areas. The point is that at some point a cheap UOA may not predict all of these variables which may start to manifest as problems later in life of the engine.

 

[84zmyfavorite]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
So you must have a hybrid to run that kind of interval and if it's a hybrid miles isn't the best way to go about establishing a service interval.
Hours or gallons burned is more in line with that type of service.
Its a 1992 GM 3.1Liter V6, I don't recall any Hybrids in 1992, Definitely not with the GM 3.1 V6.