Question on freezer test..except warmer

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RGR

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This just happened to me this morning, and got me thinking. I have recently taken two samples for Blackstone, one of the FF of a 2015 4cyl Altima, and one of whatever the dealer put into my Wrangler for one of those "free" oil changes they do for the first 4 oil changes. Not a clue what it was, but it says 5w-20 on the cap and that is what Chrysler is speccing on the newer Pentastars.

So these have both been sitting in the garage since Christmas day when I changed the oil on the Jeep..and I was out shoveling snow this morning, and was bringing in these two samples to fill out the paperwork on and send to Blackstone. Garage temp is 38-40F. I picked them both up and notice that the sample from the Nissan moves like it has the viscosity of water, but the oil from the Jeep has a slower, thicker motion to it. So I put them together and shake them gently and yep...the Nissan oil certainly moves much easier.

Now, someone on this website mentioned that Nissans ship with 0w-20 from the factory (it was said, not sure it was true, just another piece of data), and I know the dealership was supposed to put 5w-20 in the Jeep...the question is...at 38-40F is it possible that there would be that much visible difference between a 0w and a 5w? Or is it more likely that the Jeep folks threw in 10w-30 rather than 5w-20? Or is would the mileage difference hurt the viscosity, the sample from Nissan came out at 660 miles, the Jeep's dealership fill had been in for 3000 miles.

Another data point....I received those same 4 free oil changes for the Nissan when I bought it, and when I called them to ask if they put in the recommend 0w-20 or the "warranty acceptable" 5w-30 (both allowed according to the manual), they said that for the free changes they put in normal old 5w-30, but if I paid extra they would put in the 0w-20.

Another data point...the Jeep drain plug had a rubber seal on it when I changed it the first few times (prior to the dealership doing their free oil change) and they had removed, looks almost like they had scraped it off, when they did the work.

So I am currently owed like 11 free dealer oil changes on 3 different cars bought since this March, and it irritates the [censored] out of me that they might just be worthless except for one thing...the oil change by the dealer will show on the carfax when I go to trade them in. This has value for proof of care to both the dealer I trade them to, or the next owner of the cars when I'm done with them.

So as a continuation of this experiment I put both samples in the garage freezer, along with a thermometer. I'm going to be so cheesed off if the Jeep oil turns semi-solid in -20F. I replaced the dealer oil on christmas day with PP 5w-20 from the stash. No objections from the truck yet. Just for fun I should probably throw some other samples in the freezer, 0w-20, GC, Syntec of 0w-40, some PYB 5w-20? Supertech 20-50, Some SJ Quaker State 10w-30, I've got some MC 5w-20 as well as plenty of MC7500 5w and 10w-30.

I have become curiousized.
 
Not to attack the darling of the BITOG community, but...

In order to achieve the cold flow properties required for a 0w oil, a higher percentage of VII are needed. That makes the oil prone to lose of viscosity from shearing.
 
Originally Posted By: Gabe
Not to attack the darling of the BITOG community, but...

In order to achieve the cold flow properties required for a 0w oil, a higher percentage of VII are needed. That makes the oil prone to lose of viscosity from shearing.


Hmm, sounds simple. Except how does for example M1 0w40 pass the stringent MB , BMW, PORSCHE specs if it too were to shear out of grade easily...?

The 0w grade for all intensive purposes requires a synthetic oil to pass the cold temp testing specs, and often a higher blend of "real..." synthetic components ie ester/pao or other exotic ingredients, to have decent cold properties, AND stay in grade.

And "better... " VII's...!
 
Originally Posted By: geeman789
Hmm, sounds simple. Except how does for example M1 0w40 pass the stringent MB , BMW, PORSCHE specs if it too were to shear out of grade easily...?

The 0w grade for all intensive purposes requires a synthetic oil to pass the cold temp testing specs, and often a higher blend of "real..." synthetic components ie ester/pao or other exotic ingredients, to have decent cold properties, AND stay in grade.

And "better... " VII's...!


That's what I've wondered,does a 0W oil have to be a pao/ester,or can a 0W be achieved with a group III base stock?
 
There are all sorts of viscosity index improvers, some more or less prone to shear. Which ones are you talking about, and what finished oil?

Originally Posted By: Gabe
Not to attack the darling of the BITOG community, but...

In order to achieve the cold flow properties required for a 0w oil, a higher percentage of VII are needed. That makes the oil prone to lose of viscosity from shearing.
 
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
That's what I've wondered,does a 0W oil have to be a pao/ester,or can a 0W be achieved with a group III base stock?

It can be Group III. At least Petro-Canada proudly proclaims that of their SN/GF-5 0w-30.
 
So 8 oils spent a night in the freezer. I cut the bottoms off of water and soft drink plastic bottles, cleaned them out, poured in 8 different oils, labeled them, stuck them in the freezer.

Completely non-scientific observations to date.

When poured at garage temps into respective containers last night at approx. 35-38F, the only noticeable item was that 20-50 Castrol SM was already noticeably thicker than everything else. Not a surprise. MC7500 10-30 was NOT noticeably thicker than the 0w and 5w oils.

When checked this morning after a nice night at 20F, all 0w and 5w oils appeared to be equivalently smooth in their motion when sloshed around in their cups. The MC 10w might have appeared a smidge thicker, but if you told me it was just the thickest of the 5w's I would believe it.

The oil sample from the Nissan still moves easily, and the oil sample from the Jeep is behaving like a heavier than 5w oil, but not as bad as the Castrol 20w-50. So I don't know what that means, they dropped a [censored] 10w-30 in maybe? 3000 miles of use wrecked its cold flow capabilities?

Monday and Tuesday night expected lows outside are projected to be in the -10F to -5 range, oils will go outside for the night and we'll see if that can noticeably separate the men from the boys.
 
10 oils spent the night outside. Temperature at time of obervation was +2F.

GC 0w-30 - No different behavior from group
MC7500 5-30 - No different behavior from group
MC7500 10-30 - Slightly thicker than group
Castrol 20-50 - Not quite solid but thinking about it
Castrol Edge Ti 5w-30 - No different behavior from group
MC 5w-20 - Slightly thicker than group
PYB 5w-20 - Slightly thicker than group
QSUD 5w-30 - No different behavior from group

Nissan FF example - could be best of the lot.
Jeep dealership oil with 3000 miles on it- Worst of group except for castrol 20-50.

Items of note: MC 5w-20, PYP 5w-20 and MC7500 10w-30 are behaving similarly.

MC7500 5w-30 appears to have a slight viscosity edge over Castrol Titanium Edge 5w-30 at this temp. QSUD 5w-30 might..might...be displaying a slight advantage over both of them.

QSUD 5w-30 and GC 0w-30 would be current leaders, with whatever the factory fill from Nissan being right there with them, or maybe even better. Different bottles, so hard to tell from just direct observation.

Speculation. Have just reached the point where the temps are sufficient to show "shaken not stirred" observational differences. No substantial differences between single 0W and better 5w's except for MC 5w-20 and PYP 5w-20. Synthetics (real or in name only) appear to be holding up better in same viscosity group.
 
Nice work, I appreciate the effort.

Paralells my freezer tests at -20C (-5F), I use a phial about 60mm long, and 20mm diameter, place two to be comared next to each other and knock them over.

SAE30 is near solid, 20W50 flows (as you say, thinking about not), except for a cheapo brand "gulf western", which was solid.

5W and 10W, would have no problem running and building oil pressure instantly (IMO), 0W IS better there, but all (even up to 15W) are above their pumping limits according to J300.
J300.jpg


Note that they are supposed to be "fluid" at those temps.

For giggles, try some 85W gear oil, and you (may) see the formation of yield zones where it's nearly solid at the low shear areas, before finally succumbing...
 
I've got some gear oil, some transmission fluids as well. But whatever they put into that jeep I find irritating, and can't wait to see what the weight is going to be pegged at by Blackstone. So my interest is in the motor oils right now. By nature I would throw mobil 1 synthetic gear lube at whatever needs it anyway just out of habit if nothing else.

But I can be all over the map for motor oils depending on sales, old stash items, leftovers. And the Jeep thing is gnawing at me, they owe me 3 more free oil changes and I'm not sure I want them if they use some [censored] oil, or ignore the specs. I never figured they would ignore the specs, at the least I figured I would get 5w-30 but I'm not even sure of that now.

I've got plenty of good 0w and 5w-20's and -30's, and changing the oil in the Jeep takes like 5 minutes.
 
try to get them to admit they don't respect the specifications. contact Jeep with that knowledge. no such thing as free oil changes anyway, you paid for them in the sales price.
 
8 oils spent the night outside. Temperature at time of obervation was -8F.

GC 0w-30 - Best of group of 2
MC7500 5-30 - Not as good as GC but close
MC7500 10-30 - The 10w is starting to show, still flows, not as good as any 0w or 5w.
Castrol 20-50 - Mostly solid, won't pour
Castrol Edge Ti 5w-30 - Not as good as GC but close
MC 5w-20 - Not as good as MC7500 5w-30 but close
PYB 5w-20 - Not as good as MC7500 5w-30 but close
QSUD 5w-30 - As good as GC


Items of note: MC 5w-20, PYP 5w-20 and MC7500 10w-30 were similar at +4, the 5w's are now slightly ahead of the 10w at -8F

QSUD 5w-30 and GC 0w-30 win. Whatever Chrysler put in my Jeep at my last "free" oil change I don't ever want in it again.

Having said that, just the look of all these oils at this temperature make me not want to start my car with them in it at -8F. All flow slower than makes me comfortable, a few you could see the ripples as I dumped them into my waste oil container. Castrol 20-50 wouldn't dump at all.

Semi-synthetic MC7500 10w-30 held up better than I would have figured at -8F. The word "synthetic" in the label did seem to offer just enough advantage in cold flow to observe, even semi-synthetics. Except the MC 5w-20 and PYB 5w-20 which appeared to be very similar.

If we get another cold snap I'm going to try out the "as good as or perhaps better than QSUD 5w-30 oils. So the next batch would include:

Mobil 1 AFE 0w-30
Mobil 1 EP 0w-20
Ultra 5w-20
PP 5w-20
PP 0w-20

My guess is that the Ultra, heavy on GTL basestocks, will do as well as QSUD if not better. Will be interested in how the PP formulation works out, it has a similar pour point to Ultra. But the REAL item of interest to me is the Mobil 1 AFE 0w-30. Assuming the cars don't hate it or suddenly become noisy or something, that looks like it might be the ticket for winter oil in cars specced for 30 weight. Switch to almost anything 5w/10w-30 in the stash for summer, but use the 0w-30 for winter fills. Throw the 5w-20 stash at the short trip cars for summer, the 0w-20 in winter.

Being a BITOGer I reserve the right to completely reverse myself on a moments notice based on innuendo, rumor, gossip, another $1/qt sale, car noises, bad reaction from the butt-ometer, or hints from the local voodoo priestess.
 
Originally Posted By: RGR
Being a BITOGer I reserve the right to completely reverse myself on a moments notice based on innuendo, rumor, gossip, another $1/qt sale, car noises, bad reaction from the butt-ometer, or hints from the local voodoo priestess.


Sounds like a plan.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: RGR
Being a BITOGer I reserve the right to completely reverse myself on a moments notice based on innuendo, rumor, gossip, another $1/qt sale, car noises, bad reaction from the butt-ometer, or hints from the local voodoo priestess.


Sounds like a plan.


I think we all suffer from a common mental defect of some sort. With any normal person, collecting some oil, those crazy little numbers printed on the bottle that occasionally might match the ones listed in the manual, and throwing it at the car sporadically when they remember is probably good enough for a long and happy relationship.

But the wife knows...when I go stand in the garage for minutes at a time, critically examining the shelves lined with a stash of various brands and weights of motor oil, old and new, balancing the right combination of pour point, Noack, weight, light/heavy considerations within a given grade, warranty requirements, vehicle usage over next OCI, expected temperature during the next OCI.... not to bother me... as I derive just sheer pleasure from being in the presence of my hoard, no different than Smaug under the mountain.

A mental defect I say.

The wife is happy that it doesn't involve drugs, prostitutes, bars, beating her or the kids, MMA fighting for a living, and that it is fundamentally a cheap hobby that ultimately results in a cost savings to the household.
 
Families have workarounds.

Fathers' Day, my son gave me a new multimeter, so I had one for the shed, as well as the one in the freezer (thermocouple equipped)...pre christmas freezer clean-out, and wife gave me the whole meat tray for oil experiments, as long as I don't encroach on the other shelf and a half. (that allocated space comes in hand refilling camping propane bottles too)
 
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