Zeibart RustProofing

[jcwit]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint


I thought Krown and RustCheck were the best, and Ziebart sucked. If that is in fact what you're saying then you missed the whole point in what I was trying to say. Proper preparation and proper application makes for a good job, not the name of the company doing it. Its the mechanic doing the job. He can work for Krown, Ziebart, a mom and pop shop, or spray the [censored] out of his back yard, its all up to the guy doing the job. So if the guy spraying the [censored] out of his back yard does the best prep and application work, his job will last the longest. Having a quality vehicle can help a bit too.


Granted the person applying the product is very important, but by the same token the product itself need to be up to the job, which I do not think Ziebart is, one only needs to look at the feedbacks and reviews to understand that.

You may well be the exception to make the rule true.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: jcwit
Originally Posted By: demarpaint


I thought Krown and RustCheck were the best, and Ziebart sucked. If that is in fact what you're saying then you missed the whole point in what I was trying to say. Proper preparation and proper application makes for a good job, not the name of the company doing it. Its the mechanic doing the job. He can work for Krown, Ziebart, a mom and pop shop, or spray the [censored] out of his back yard, its all up to the guy doing the job. So if the guy spraying the [censored] out of his back yard does the best prep and application work, his job will last the longest. Having a quality vehicle can help a bit too.


Granted the person applying the product is very important, but by the same token the product itself need to be up to the job, which I do not think Ziebart is, one only needs to look at the feedbacks and reviews to understand that.

You may well be the exception to make the rule true.


27+ years ago they all used the same [censored] to rustproof cars, or verrrrrrrry similar. Ziebart back when I had the job done was touted as the best around. It was all the applicator doing the job properly! In fact I was told to make sure Gary did my van. I made sure he did and took care of him before he started.

I bet if we look at your brake lines spots were missed all over them, especially between the top or the line and the floor boards. They are a poor quality steel I bet. A more careful inspection of your vehicle will probably reveal the guy did a fast lousy job missing spots. Next time tip the guy first and stand there while he does it, you'll get a better job. But to your point Ziebart did your car so you can't blame Krown.

I got dragged into this thread because I was one of the Ziebart success stories. I saw a lot of cars treated by Gary over the years and they held up very well. Had I replaced the name Ziebart with Krown we wouldn't be having this discussion. Odds are there's a good chance you'd be telling me Krown is the best and that's why.

Maybe next time a rust proofing thread comes up and I mention my van I'll say Gary Bart did it.

 

[rockydee]

I get it Demar. It seems to me jc is po'ed at Ziebart. I'd be too but at the end it the day, its the guy that did the car that f'd it up.

This might be something on a similar note. On a recent visit to my daughter she had a handy man do a little painting for her. She bought him Moores $80 a gallon Aura paint to use. It was peeling off her doors in sheets. The guy was clueless, he didn't scuff the doors, he just painted right over them. Should I be mad at B Moore, or the guy who painted the doors. Aura is supposed to be the best, the problem she had was the guy putting it on sucked! I wanted to choke the guy, I made him do the doors over while I was there. They're good now.-RD

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: rockydee
I get it Demar. It seems to me jc is po'ed at Ziebart. I'd be too but at the end it the day, its the guy that did the car that f'd it up.

This might be something on a similar note. On a recent visit to my daughter she had a handy man do a little painting for her. She bought him Moores $80 a gallon Aura paint to use. It was peeling off her doors in sheets. The guy was clueless, he didn't scuff the doors, he just painted right over them. Should I be mad at B Moore, or the guy who painted the doors. Aura is supposed to be the best, the problem she had was the guy putting it on sucked! I wanted to choke the guy, I made him do the doors over while I was there. They're good now.-RD


I'm glad you got it.

You're daughter's experience is not uncommon. People think because they bought "the best" paint all they have to do is smear it on. What sucks is she paid someone. Good prep, and proper application is the key. The same goes for rustproofing a car. Do it wrong and you'll have problems. Do it right, and maintain it, it works at protecting against rust. Pretty simple actually.

Hopefully I'm done with this thread there isn't too much more I can say.

 

[oilpsi2high]

I've never been a believer of these undercoatings. My first new car specifically states in the owners manual to NOT use any aftermarket undercoating, so I never did. 8 NY winters later, the undercarriage is rust free still.

I remember going to a junkyard when I owned an older Chevy looking for parts. I found the same model of my car in the junkyard, with what looked like MINT rocker panels from being undercoated. I took my screwdriver and poked at it, and the screwdriver went right through the metal. Underneath that black undercoating was all rotten.

I think what happens is once rocks and dirt penetrate that aftermarket undercoating, moisture is allowed to get in and it gets stuck underneath the coating, rusting the car out faster and where you cannot see it. I would never pay to have any of my cars undercoated, ever.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: oilpsi2high
I've never been a believer of these undercoatings. My first new car specifically states in the owners manual to NOT use any aftermarket undercoating, so I never did. 8 NY winters later, the undercarriage is rust free still.

I remember going to a junkyard when I owned an older Chevy looking for parts. I found the same model of my car in the junkyard, with what looked like MINT rocker panels from being undercoated. I took my screwdriver and poked at it, and the screwdriver went right through the metal. Underneath that black undercoating was all rotten.

I think what happens is once rocks and dirt penetrate that aftermarket undercoating, moisture is allowed to get in and it gets stuck underneath the coating, rusting the car out faster and where you cannot see it. I would never pay to have any of my cars undercoated, ever.


I agree, my van was not treated with undercoating. It was a waxy oil that crept. Traditional tar like undercoatings is something I would avoid as well.

 

[KrisZ]

I agree that the black tar undercoating is bad when used by itself. However if you have it applied, like my Mazda 3 did, it actually helps thin rustproofing oils, like Krown, resist wash off. It creates more mess, but the mix of tar and rustproofing oil makes a very durable protection layer.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint


Thanks for helping make my point for me, you did it much better than I did!

Preparation and proper application is the key, the name of the product or the company applying it has nothing to do with it. I know tipping the guy before he started the job, and I watched him do it had a lot to do with how long the job lasted. Had I mentioned Krown applied it, I bet the whole tone of this discussion would be different!


The other thing with this is that just like QC/QA is critical for the application of a product, QC/QA is also essential for the installation of products. Lets say that jcwit is right and Im wrong - kia just so happens to have world class corrosion inhibition, better than anyone else. OK, well, dont all companies have lemon items slip through? Just like good quality processes are needed to protect with ziebart, krown, etc., good processes are also needed to ensure that bad parts dont slip through... And they do, sometimes, regardless of the manufacturer or how great a spec is invoked. Stick any piece of unprotected/uncoated steel under a car, ziebart or not, salt or not, and see how well it lasts...

Again, still too much speculation in terms of anecdotal results. Ziebart is often sold as an add on by dealers trying to add to their bottom line... that leaves lots of chance for variability... In terms of that, in terms of part specs, in terms of QC/QA, specifications, etc.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: demarpaint


Thanks for helping make my point for me, you did it much better than I did!

Preparation and proper application is the key, the name of the product or the company applying it has nothing to do with it. I know tipping the guy before he started the job, and I watched him do it had a lot to do with how long the job lasted. Had I mentioned Krown applied it, I bet the whole tone of this discussion would be different!


The other thing with this is that just like QC/QA is critical for the application of a product, QC/QA is also essential for the installation of products. Lets say that jcwit is right and Im wrong - kia just so happens to have world class corrosion inhibition, better than anyone else. OK, well, dont all companies have lemon items slip through? Just like good quality processes are needed to protect with ziebart, krown, etc., good processes are also needed to ensure that bad parts dont slip through... And they do, sometimes, regardless of the manufacturer or how great a spec is invoked. Stick any piece of unprotected/uncoated steel under a car, ziebart or not, salt or not, and see how well it lasts...

Again, still too much speculation in terms of anecdotal results. Ziebart is often sold as an add on by dealers trying to add to their bottom line... that leaves lots of chance for variability... In terms of that, in terms of part specs, in terms of QC/QA, specifications, etc.


Vehicle quality is certainly a factor. I still think its all up to who did the job and how well it was done when it comes to rustproofing a car. Dealer add on's leave a lot to the imagination, odds are they buzz through it, and the service is worthless.

As I said before, if they sprayed the black tar under the vehicle I could see where it could pose problems. A waxy-oil type product that creeps, properly applied and maintained, will extend the life of a vehicle, especially if it's used in the rust belt.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: jcwit
Brake lines are in the process of being replaced. Being as the body is still in excellent shape and mechanically is excellent from this date forward it will be treated with Krown rustproofing. Well at least after winter this will happen.

No more Ziebart for my vehicles.


My old 99 Expedition had rotten brake lines, the frame was still good. The lines were so bad it was hard to tell if they rotted from inside or outside.
Dads 99 Ranger had factory new looking brake lines and a frame so badly rusted it broke in half in 3 places.

The point is if the steel on the line is bad its going to be impossible to protect it, brake fluid absorbs moisture and you cant rustproof the lines from inside.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: jcwit
Brake lines are in the process of being replaced. Being as the body is still in excellent shape and mechanically is excellent from this date forward it will be treated with Krown rustproofing. Well at least after winter this will happen.

No more Ziebart for my vehicles.


My old 99 Expedition had rotten brake lines, the frame was still good. The lines were so bad it was hard to tell if they rotted from inside or outside.
Dads 99 Ranger had factory new looking brake lines and a frame so badly rusted it broke in half in 3 places.

The point is if the steel on the line is bad its going to be impossible to protect it, brake fluid absorbs moisture and you cant rustproof the lines from inside.


Good point about brake lines Paul. Is there anything else they can be made of? In nearly 40 years of driving I only had to replace one because it rotted out, I've been lucky, other people not so lucky.

 

[doitmyself]

I'll add my 2 cents here and stir the pot a bit. The "epic" point/counterpoint argument is fascinating. Why don't you guys hug and make up? LOL.

JCWIT thinks Ziebart is a bad system - bad product and he concedes that applicator competency matters. You other guys contend Ziebart has/will work IF applied competently.

Here's my take.

I had my '82 Escort Ziebarted when new(with annual inpections/resprays)and they paid to make rust-through repairs 5 years later. My last '04 Caravan started getting a bit of seam rust in year 6. I had 2 annual apps. of Rust Check, attempting to slow things down. In year 9 the rockers disintegrated over winter....the rockers were oil-less inside.

Despite the applicator competency argument, this left me soured on these companies, a human trait common here that sometimes holds on at decision time. I'm trying Krown this time around and the guys in Windsor seem to do a thorough job...time will tell.

I also think Ziebart has dropped the ball. Their site barely describes their rust proof process and materials. They(what's left of them) ventured into other detailing services in the 90's.

Does anyone even know what the Ziebart process and material is anymore?? I'm curious.

A final comment. I thought rust proofing became obsolete in the 90's. I think vehicle rust resistance has taken a step back in the mid 2,000s and it seems to be hit or miss on numerous brands and/or models (the 2008 Cadillac in this thread).

Why???:
-maybe the environmental regulations effect on new paint and rust treatment processes?
-thinner metal??
-new fabrication techniques?
-more and/or stronger road chemicals? Idiot drivers cannot tolerate any road delays. Our roads are like a salt mine.
-maybe cost cutting on the auto mfg. part?

Just hypothesis'.

And, cut JCWIT some slack. He lives in NW Indiana and the fumes from Gary affects everyone there. I was born and raised there and it's a good place to be from.

 

[Tdbo]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Wow, I had my van done by them in the fall of 1987. It is driven in NY winters. I went for the free annual inspections and touch ups for a few years until they went out of business in the early 90's IIRC. I would throw the guy $20 and he'd take care of me. Fast forward to 2014, there's not one bit of rust on the van anywhere! Maybe I got lucky or maybe they did a good job. Food for thought.


Nothing "Free" about their inspections now. They are close to $60.a year.

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: doitmyself
I'll add my 2 cents here and stir the pot a bit. The "epic" point/counterpoint argument is fascinating. Why don't you guys hug and make up? LOL.

JCWIT thinks Ziebart is a bad system - bad product and he concedes that applicator competency matters. You other guys contend Ziebart has/will work IF applied competently.

Here's my take.

I had my '82 Escort Ziebarted when new(with annual inpections/resprays)and they paid to make rust-through repairs 5 years later. My last '04 Caravan started getting a bit of seam rust in year 6. I had 2 annual apps. of Rust Check, attempting to slow things down. In year 9 the rockers disintegrated over winter....the rockers were oil-less inside.

Despite the applicator competency argument, this left me soured on these companies, a human trait common here that sometimes holds on at decision time. I'm trying Krown this time around and the guys in Windsor seem to do a thorough job...time will tell.

I also think Ziebart has dropped the ball. Their site barely describes their rust proof process and materials. They(what's left of them) ventured into other detailing services in the 90's.

Does anyone even know what the Ziebart process and material is anymore?? I'm curious.

A final comment. I thought rust proofing became obsolete in the 90's. I think vehicle rust resistance has taken a step back in the mid 2,000s and it seems to be hit or miss on numerous brands and/or models (the 2008 Cadillac in this thread).

Why???:
-maybe the environmental regulations effect on new paint and rust treatment processes?
-thinner metal??
-new fabrication techniques?
-more and/or stronger road chemicals? Idiot drivers cannot tolerate any road delays. Our roads are like a salt mine.
-maybe cost cutting on the auto mfg. part?

Just hypothesis'.

And, cut JCWIT some slack. He lives in NW Indiana and the fumes from Gary affects everyone there. I was born and raised there and it's a good place to be from.

A lot of northern states are pretreating roads with brine before the snow actually starts falling. It helps with plowing down to bare epavement but it's murder on sheet metal.
I bought several SAABs in the 80s where somehow more "rustproofing" got on the exhaust system than anywhere else. I can still smell it. BTW I didn't ask for it was not charged for it.

 

[HerrStig]

There was a well known European company in the rust proofing business in the US for a few years after which they beat a hasty retreat. Can't remember the name right now. Does it ring any bells? Waxoyl maybe?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Tdbo
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Wow, I had my van done by them in the fall of 1987. It is driven in NY winters. I went for the free annual inspections and touch ups for a few years until they went out of business in the early 90's IIRC. I would throw the guy $20 and he'd take care of me. Fast forward to 2014, there's not one bit of rust on the van anywhere! Maybe I got lucky or maybe they did a good job. Food for thought.


Nothing "Free" about their inspections now. They are close to $60.a year.


They packed up and left my area many years ago, a lot has changed I'm sure. Now that you mentioned it, the inspection was free, and touch ups were free too. The catch, I believe was they'd charge to clean the undercarriage if it was deemed dirty by them. It's been a long time so I might be a little fuzzy on the details.

There are no shops that I'm aware of that even do any rustproofing in my area. I was told Ziebart left because of the EPA and the cost of the upgrades they would have had to make to their shop to stay compliant.

From what I've read here their rep sucks now. I still maintain the job is only as good as the guy who applies it. Having said that I'll say this to keep peace. Maybe I got lucky!

 

[2KBMW]

The problem with these permanent type coatings like Ziebart is that they trap moisture
between the body and sealant. It's just a cover-up and you won't notice any rust until you scrap away the sealant. The best is an oil type penetrating spray that gets into the seams and pockets and flows to creep. Yes, they are a little messy but I myself don't care. The product is applied under high pressure so there is a greater chance of the body panels getting 100% coverage vs the wax/tar Ziebart type sealant. I use Krown myself. I've had cars with only two or three applications and after nine to ten years there is no rust what so ever.
PS. for my American friends , Krown, Rust Check and Corrosion Free do have outlets in the U.S now so do a search and see if one is located in your area.

 

[jcwit]

Originally Posted By: 2KBMW
The problem with these permanent type coatings like Ziebart is that they trap moisture
between the body and sealant. It's just a cover-up and you won't notice any rust until you scrap away the sealant. The best is an oil type penetrating spray that gets into the seams and pockets and flows to creep. Yes, they are a little messy but I myself don't care. The product is applied under high pressure so there is a greater chance of the body panels getting 100% coverage vs the wax/tar Ziebart type sealant. I use Krown myself. I've had cars with only two or three applications and after nine to ten years there is no rust what so ever.
PS. for my American friends , Krown, Rust Check and Corrosion Free do have outlets in the U.S now so do a search and see if one is located in your area.


Correct, the coating Ziebart currently applies and what was applied to my wife's car was the tar like stuff, think roof coating/roof cement, that in time dries to a hard caked coating that cracks and allows water to be held in place causing rust. The wax/creeping coating that demarpaint refers to is what is now used on the inside of doors and panels and rocker panels.

Krown has a dealer on the west side of Ohio, and Rust Check has a dealer in South Bend, Indiana. Not sure about Corrosion Free.

To the best of my knowledge these were not available when I had my wife's car done.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: jcwit
Originally Posted By: 2KBMW
The problem with these permanent type coatings like Ziebart is that they trap moisture
between the body and sealant. It's just a cover-up and you won't notice any rust until you scrap away the sealant. The best is an oil type penetrating spray that gets into the seams and pockets and flows to creep. Yes, they are a little messy but I myself don't care. The product is applied under high pressure so there is a greater chance of the body panels getting 100% coverage vs the wax/tar Ziebart type sealant. I use Krown myself. I've had cars with only two or three applications and after nine to ten years there is no rust what so ever.
PS. for my American friends , Krown, Rust Check and Corrosion Free do have outlets in the U.S now so do a search and see if one is located in your area.


Correct, the coating Ziebart currently applies and what was applied to my wife's car was the tar like stuff, think roof coating/roof cement, that in time dries to a hard caked coating that cracks and allows water to be held in place causing rust. The wax/creeping coating that demarpaint refers to is what is now used on the inside of doors and panels and rocker panels.

Krown has a dealer on the west side of Ohio, and Rust Check has a dealer in South Bend, Indiana. Not sure about Corrosion Free.

To the best of my knowledge these were not available when I had my wife's car done.


I agree. My van however was treated with a waxy/creeping coating, not the black tar you're referring too, they used it in all the panels and a slightly different version of it on the underside. If they were going to shoot it with that tar garbage I would have passed.

FTR and to clear things up. As I mentioned the van was treated on 1987. The Ziebart shop on L.I is long gone, they did quality work and used the right materials in my case.

In jcwit's case IMO we have a situation where a sound deadening/undercoating material was used/sold as a rustproofing compound, and that's a poor choice.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
In jcwit's case IMO we have a situation where a sound deadening/undercoating material was used/sold as a rustproofing compound, and that's a poor choice.


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