Alternative to Motul 300V 10-40 in road race bike?

[Analyzer]

Quite right.

There is no track in the world, where in real life qualifying conditions one could ever possibly measure 1-2 hp(actual) difference between two motorcycles, that are for all intents and purposes identical.
Even when ridden by the same rider and set up exactly the same way to the rider's requirements for maximum performance.
A figure of 4-5 hp or more is realistic to be able to measure a difference in qualifying track times, but 1-2 hp is dreaming.
I'm not even convinced that one would get 4-5 hp difference between running a 10w-30 grade oil and a 15w-50 grade oil in the same assembly that's producing 125+ hp anyway.
A 5w/10w-40 grade oil has been proven to be adequate in virtually all applications like the OP's. Especially given the requirements of the transmission as has been mentioned by yourself.

I personally would rather follow the manufacturers/engine builder's recommendations and be happy with what I'm doing.

For example, DUCATI even spec/recommend a 15w-50 grade full synthetic oil for their heaviest hitting street legal race bikes that develop in the order of 195+ hp.

Further.
Oil pressure and or flow are not the be all and end all(holy grail) of the full lubrication requirements of any shared sump assembly.
The engineers that designed the machine know the best out of anybody in the world.

I suppose one could easily run a 0w-20 grade oil and get away with it.
For a little while at least. [/quote]



Completely agree, well put!

 

[BusyLittleShop]

The choice is yours Eskimo, but I don't think your builder went to the
trouble to blueprint & balance your engine and factory port your head
just to lose another 1 to 2 HP in unnecessary oil drag... choosing a
30 over a 40 is smarter because it will:

1)increase HP at the rear wheel
2)quicken the throttle response coming out of the corners...
3)decrease over all operating temps...
4)increase the oil flow at the critical bearings...

Technically speaking any one of 30 grade 100% synthetic motorcycle specific oils will meet
and exceed both your racing and mileage expectations...

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: Ducman

I'm not even convinced that one would get 4-5 hp difference between running a 10w-30 grade oil and a 15w-50 grade oil in the same assembly that's producing 125+ hp anyway.


Even the journalist were skeptical but they were surprised to note a HP boost on their
dyno between a 30 and 40... just imagine the difference would have been between a 30 and 50...

Quote Sportrider
We were as surprised as anyone that just changing oil can produce a horsepower boost.

Dyno Test
Some oil manufacturers and their representatives claim that using their product will
result in more horsepower. These are special ultra-lightweight-viscosity racing synthetic
oils that are said to reduce the parasitic drag that oil has on an engine's internal
reciprocating components. We decided to put these claims to the test-an actual
dynamometer test. Two of the full synthetic oils in this test make these horsepower
claims on their labels: Maxima Maxum Ultra (in 0W-30 and 5W-30) and Motul Factory Line
300V (in 5W-30). We took two open-class sportbikes-a Suzuki GSX-R1000 and a Yamaha
YZF-R1-and ran them with common off-the-shelf Valvoline 10W-40 automobile mineral oil to
set a baseline dyno run. That oil was drained and replaced with the 0W-30 Maxum Ultra in
the Suzuki, and the 5W-30 Motul 300V in the Yamaha. After about 15 miles of running to
get the oil fully circulated through the engine, the bikes were then dynoed again.

Lo and behold, both the Suzuki and Yamaha posted horsepower gains. While not an earth-
shattering boost in power, the gains were far beyond common run variations, and weren't
restricted to the very top end. The GSX-R1000 posted an increase of 3.3 horsepower on
top, with some noticeable midrange gains as well; even more interesting was that the
power steadily increased for several dyno runs (as the coolant temp increased). The
Yamaha responded nearly as well, with a 2.7 horsepower boost on top. It should also be
noted that while riding both bikes, there was a noticeable ease in shifting with the
synthetic oils compared to the automobile mineral oil. Pretty impressive for just
changing oil, in our opinion.

 

[Ducman]

What you're saying in right in theory, and I totally accept this concept in principal.

Practice is a different matter.
Even when doing dyno runs one after the other on a rolling dyno, it's possible to get 2-3 hp variation between runs.

Also you're not comparing apples with apples in your example.
The example is comparing Mineral oils with Synthetic oils.(what ever they may be).
The difference is chalk and cheese.

It has been the case on numerous occasions, that a race team has run a lighter grade of oil strictly for the purposes of qualifying as a last ditch/desperate effort, in the hope of getting a better grid position for the race start where the gap in lap times is very close and hotly contested.
I can assure you that as soon as the machine returns back to the pits, the light stuff is dropped straight out, and a fresh fill of the correct grade/thicker oil is put straight back in for the duration of the actual race.
Especially on longer distance/endurance races.
You see, it's in their best interests to able to actually finish the race as well.
Preferably at the front.

In recent times, 10w-30 grade motorcycle oil has emerged as an alternative to the usual 10w-40 grade oils.
I put it to you, that it is for applications where the thinner oil is "specified by the manufacturers".
Often it's intended for use in scooters and other small engines that are specd for it and or used in the coldest of climates.

I note you have posted a pic of the Amsoil MCT 10w-30 grade motorcycle oil.

If you take the time to read the Amsoil Application guide for the MCT.
Amsoil state, that it's suitable for applications like Motorcycles, Scooters, ATV's and UTV's "requiring" a 10w-30 grade oil.
Amsoil do not state that it's suitable for any applications, where a 10w-40 grade oil is specified.

If you have a look at the Application guide for the Amsoil MCF 10w-40 grade oil, it reads quite differently. The same applies to the MCV 20w-50 grade oil.


Further.
You won't ever convince me to run it in any of my DUCATI's, or anything else for that matter. Unless it's specd for it by the manufacturer in my climate and application.

Sacrificing the longevity of your assembly for the dogmatic pursuit of 1, maybe 2 hp is lunacy. IMO.

You can run whatever you like in your machines. Go and knock yourself out.

To advise other people to universally use the thinnest stuff available in applications that will always require more protection than it can ever offer is pure folly.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: Analyzer


I don't mean to sound rude, so please don't take it in that frame of mind


No problem... I think we're all getting along just fine...

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: Ducman

You won't ever convince me to run it in any of my DUCATI's, or anything else for that matter. Unless it's specd for it by the manufacturer in my climate and application.


You never mentioned what Ducati you own and do you happen to know my friends Jamie and Chris
Campbell in South Australia??? Jamie owns an HRC kitted RC45 and his brother owns a RC51...

 

[Ducman]

Sorry, I don't know your friends in SA.
SA is virtually on the other side of the country.

The DUCATI's that I currently own are a 2010 SFS and an 2012 1199 S.
I also have a 2006 HD VRSCR.
Given these are the motorcycles that I am riding, I am confident you can understand that a 10w-30 grade oil will never be used anywhere in the world in these machines, let alone in my climate as I ride all year round with the same oil.

Perhaps if I were living in the southern states, I would reasonably consider the 10w-40 grade oil for the DUCATI's in winter, depending on the ability of the starter to crank the engines dead cold in the morning. And pending the results of UOA's to verify it's effectiveness to keep wear in check.

 

[BillyTheKid]

The change in oil weights being discussed will not produce a HP difference. You will see more difference with weather conditions or proper air in a tire.

Been there - done that on a dyno. Nobody will ever convince me of this.

 

[Ducman]

Agreed.

 

[02SE]

Far be it from me to tell anyone what oil to use in their bikes. I'll just relate a story regarding an LSR (LandSpeedRacing) Turbo Hayabusa I worked on.

Suzuki generally recommended a 10w40 be used in their bike in stock form. Now the Turbo bike was making somewhere on the order of 4 times the stock bike horsepower. On a pass down the long course at Bonneville, the oil temperature would get up to around 300° F. The synthetic 15w50 we were using did an excellent job protecting the engine and transmission. In all of the engine/transmission teardowns we never saw signs of excess wear due to the oil.

Anyway, an acquaintance of the bike owner, who happened to be a crew member on a very successful AMA Superbike team, recommended he try a specific low viscosity oil which they used for qualifying.

I pointed out that the LSR bike was making approx. 3 times the horsepower of the AMA Superbike. But this guy stood by his recommendation. Anyway, as soon as passes were made using the low viscosity oil, we started noticing fretting on the teeth of the transmission gears. Where none had existed in prior inspections with the high viscosity oil.

My point? Under severe use conditions, the high viscosity oil did a much better job protecting the various engine and transmission parts.

 

[Ducman]

Thankyou for this informative post.

The rule is.
Thick as you need, thin as you can get away with.

 

[BusyLittleShop]

If your engine is pushing 3 times the horsepower of the AMA Superbike you might want to talk
to 02SE about oil... other than that thin is still in for a 600...

 

[Ducman]

Ask the manufacturer what they will cover under warranty.

 

[02SE]

I believe he said KWS Motorsports built the engine. I've never had any work done by them, but they are like most (all?) high performance engine builders, in that the only guarantee is that the engine is in good running condition when you take possession of it.

There is no warranty of any kind, after you take possession.

 

[Analyzer]

Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
If your engine is pushing 3 times the horsepower of the AMA Superbike you might want to talk
to 02SE about oil... other than that thin is still in for a 600...


Thanks 02SE for your previous post, very informative indeed! Since we were initially talking about a Yamaha R6, I figured we might as well go over some stats with the R6 and Yamaha's recommendations for it.

For instance, lets assume you bought the bike brand new from Yamaha and are warrantied for either their 1 year unlimited mileage, or you went for their Yamaha Extended Service program and have 5 year unlimited mileage warranty. You decide to use it exclusively or quite extensively at the race track and you decided to go with BusyLittleShop's recommendation and use Mobil 1 AFE in a 0W30 grade in the hopes of unleashing an extra 1-2 hp at the track.

First of all, please keep in mind that the initial/break in fill from Yamaha going into your R6 is going to be a 10W40 viscosity (which HAPPENS TO BE Yamaha's recommended viscosity for most ambient temperatures), NOT a 10W30. Secondly, in the owners manual on page 6-17 it states, "Do not use oils with a diesel specification of "CD" or OILS OF A HIGHER QUALITY THAN SPECIFIED. In addition, do not use oils labeled "ENERGY CONSERVING II" OR HIGHER. It further states on page 8-1 to use,"...API service SG type or higher, JASO standard MA quality". It then also designates that a 10W30 lube is meant for more severe cold startup ambient temps and only to be used if outside temperatures DO NOT EXCEED 70 degrees. In the service manual, it goes into greater detail showing not to use any oil viscosity below a 10W30, NOT A 5Wxx, a 0Wxx, or ANYTHING LOWER than 10W30, but upwards of a 20W50 can be used.

To put all this in perspective, even though the subject at hand is for a built race engine and you assume all responsibility for it's use and lack of warranty, this topic is very relevant.

If you followed BusyLittleShop's advice and ran a 0W30 and had a mechanical failure/issue from increased wear from the engine, gearbox, or clutch, and they verified either through you or through a UOA that you used a 0W30 oil, your warranty would be null and void because you as the operator of the vehicle failed to adhere to Yamaha's (or any other bike manufacturers) guidelines set forth in their manual for the proper maintenance and longevity of the motorcycle; and here are your reasons why:

1. Didn't adhere to proper oil viscosity recommendations: Oil fill was specified as 10W40, with ambient temperature guidelines if in extremely cold temperatures allowing 10W30, not 5W30 or 0W30.

2. As quoted in the owners manual on page 6-17, "Do not use oils with a diesel specification of "CD" or OILS OF A HIGHER QUALITY THAN SPECIFIED." The use of Mobil 1 AFE is beyond the API SG cert. since it meets SN standards and therefor the chemical/additive formulations are inherently different (major differences of phosphorus and zinc limitations set forth for car emissions standards with SN 30 grades and below).

3.As quoted in the owners manual on page 6-17, "do not use oils labeled "ENERGY CONSERVING II" OR HIGHER. The use of Mobil 1 AFE is considered Resource Conserving which is newer standard beyond that of Energy Conserving II, which increases the risk of clutch incompatibility due to clutch slippage/glazing since it does not adhere to dynamic, static, and stop time friction indices brought about by the JASO MA standard.

4. It further states on page 8-1 to use,"...API service SG type or higher, JASO standard MA quality". Once again, the use of Mobil 1 AFE does not meet or exceed that of the JASO MA specification, making it incompatible with current formulations and standards set forth for proper motorcycle engine, clutch, and gearbox protection.

Here is a BITOG VOA for Mobil 1 AFE in a 0W20 grade, although thinner viscosity, will have a virtually identical additive package. Please note that the JASO spec states that for an oil to meet it's standards must have a minimum of 800 PPM of Phosphorus and upwards of 1200 PPM.

JASO T 903 Standards

Mobil 1 AFE in order to meet the Resource Conserving can have as low as 600 PPM levels of Phosphorus, with the VOA showing a total of 543 PPM. Again, a lack of ZDDP can lead to increased wear levels, and this is why the JASO spec has refused to allow low levels like in the automotive industry. If you compare Mobil's stats, they show the AFE should have 650 PPM of phosphorus, while their Mobil 1 4T motorcycle oil contains 1200 PPM of phosphorus, while they're V-Twin contains 1600 PPM, upwards of 250% more phosphorus than the Resource Conserving fuel efficient AFE!

BITOG MOBIL 1 AFE VOA

MOBIL 1 OIL SPECS

Furthermore, I have yet to get a response to the use of 0W30 and how well it would protect a motorcycle's components if it sheared to a thinner grade! 0W30 by it's own nature, even with a high viscosity index, will require a hefty amount of VII's (viscosity index improvers) that make it more prone to shear instability, and once coupled with the addition of fuel dilution, could easily bring this oil down to a 0W20. Again, I pose the question, would you trust a 0W20 while racing your motorcycle at upwards of 16,500 RPM, especially when the motorcycle manufacturers don't recommend you do it!?

 

[BusyLittleShop]

Originally Posted By: Analyzer


Thanks 02SE for your previous post, very informative indeed!


I agree... his LSR adventure deserves its own thread with photos...

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
Originally Posted By: Analyzer


Thanks 02SE for your previous post, very informative indeed!


I agree... his LSR adventure deserves its own thread with photos...


Well, I appreciate the interest, but I was just there to work on the bikes, and hang out with friends. Any story telling would be up to the owner of the bikes. Here are a couple of the LSR TurboBusa's.

This one made 615 rwhp on VP Import fuel, using Mobil 1 15w50 motor oil.

This one made 670 rwhp on Methanol, using Kendall Nitro 70 motor oil.

 

[Mackelroy]

In my experience with extensive top end runs, the highest top end results have been with heavier weight oils than lighter weights, how can that be?

I don't know but thems the facts. I think once an oil is fully thinned out 20w50 real synthetic verses a 5w40 real synthetic, heavier oil film will aide with less friction at extreme rpms, especially in high load areas like cam lobes and such.

I think that's what makes the slight difference at the extremes.

 

[rraiderr]

Based on UOA's using the crew I ride with bike's which are 2 late model GSX-R600, 1 GSX-R750, 2 GSX-R1000 and 1 RSV4R the most stout oils we have run across are below and confirmed by Sunruh on his real world testing.

Maxima Ultra/Extra
Amsoil 20W-50

We have settled on Amsoil 20W-50 as the UOA's were quite good even after the pounding of several days on the track.

Listen to Sunruh, he knows his stuff.

 

[Cujet]

Somewhat related:

Back in 1984-85, I worked for a race team and we were looking for a few more MPH at Daytona in our V8 powered cars. We switched from Kendall and QS molasses to a unique and very thin Mobil 1. Eventually, we simply used 5W-30 M1.

The Ford V8 engines were producing 700HP and the major wear was connecting rod bearing materials. The thinner oil resulted in shorter bearing life. But we were able to get over 200MPH with the change to the thinner oil. And, the engines lasted long enough to complete the races.

Back then, pistons were still quite heavy, as were connecting rods. The inertial loads on the connecting rod bearings were clearly above the capacity of the thinner oils.

Today, we have much lighter piston and rod assemblies. This allows the successful use of significantly thinner oils.