Does anyone here with a Ram 1500 eco-diesel...
- Thread starter another Todd
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Let me put it like this - if I got hit by anybody towing a trailer, whether it's a utility trailer, a travel trailer, WHATEVER trailer the first thing I'm going to do is estimate his payload, and go from there. If I expect he's over, I will call my attorney, or if any of my friends are in the same situation, I will advise them accordingly.
If it goes to court (probably will be settle out of court if no injuries were caused) they will have to explain to my attorney how they are qualified to overload or modify said vehicle beyond what the manufacturer says it can haul.
It will be interesting!
Yea, and I will be called sue happy,I'm part of the problem, etc., I really don't care-so don't even start that argument.
If it goes to court (probably will be settle out of court if no injuries were caused) they will have to explain to my attorney how they are qualified to overload or modify said vehicle beyond what the manufacturer says it can haul.
It will be interesting!
Yea, and I will be called sue happy,I'm part of the problem, etc., I really don't care-so don't even start that argument.
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Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: itguy08
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: CKN
BTW-all those who want to ignore the payload will suffer dire legal consequences in the event of an "at fault" accident.
Is that really true though? All guys with lifted trucks, or even bigger tires, or suspension tweaks, get sued to skid row when they have an accident?
I don't know but I'd hate to be the one to find out. I would think it's hard to fault a lift or bigger tires as a contributing factor. A whole lot easier for the lawyers to say "your truck can tow 5klbs and you put 8k on it, exceeding its design, therefore you are at fault."
See, here's yet another point we can agree on!
I personally know a gentleman who was sued blind for running vans over weight limits when an accident occurred. Any sharp attorney will check that if circumstances warrant.
Despite what myself and others may think a vehicle can tow, even if modded, I would never even consider going over the specified limits on a public road.
Can't agree more, which is why I'm s stickler about payload capacity. I have heard stories and their are sharp attorneys around. You get into an accident while working with an overloaded truck and watch out it could be bad!
This is why a lot of my contractors have retired their half ton vans and now run 3/4 and 1 ton.
Originally Posted By: itguy08
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: CKN
BTW-all those who want to ignore the payload will suffer dire legal consequences in the event of an "at fault" accident.
Is that really true though? All guys with lifted trucks, or even bigger tires, or suspension tweaks, get sued to skid row when they have an accident?
I don't know but I'd hate to be the one to find out. I would think it's hard to fault a lift or bigger tires as a contributing factor. A whole lot easier for the lawyers to say "your truck can tow 5klbs and you put 8k on it, exceeding its design, therefore you are at fault."
See, here's yet another point we can agree on!
I personally know a gentleman who was sued blind for running vans over weight limits when an accident occurred. Any sharp attorney will check that if circumstances warrant.
Despite what myself and others may think a vehicle can tow, even if modded, I would never even consider going over the specified limits on a public road.
Can't agree more, which is why I'm s stickler about payload capacity. I have heard stories and their are sharp attorneys around. You get into an accident while working with an overloaded truck and watch out it could be bad!
This is why a lot of my contractors have retired their half ton vans and now run 3/4 and 1 ton.
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Originally Posted By: itguy08
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: CKN
BTW-all those who want to ignore the payload will suffer dire legal consequences in the event of an "at fault" accident.
Is that really true though? All guys with lifted trucks, or even bigger tires, or suspension tweaks, get sued to skid row when they have an accident?
I don't know but I'd hate to be the one to find out. I would think it's hard to fault a lift or bigger tires as a contributing factor. A whole lot easier for the lawyers to say "your truck can tow 5klbs and you put 8k on it, exceeding its design, therefore you are at fault."
If a "lifted to the sky" truck had an accident and rolled over a car because the trucks bumper was 4-5 feet off the ground, then yes I belive you could argue the lift was negligent and caused the injuries to the occupants of the car.
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: CKN
BTW-all those who want to ignore the payload will suffer dire legal consequences in the event of an "at fault" accident.
Is that really true though? All guys with lifted trucks, or even bigger tires, or suspension tweaks, get sued to skid row when they have an accident?
I don't know but I'd hate to be the one to find out. I would think it's hard to fault a lift or bigger tires as a contributing factor. A whole lot easier for the lawyers to say "your truck can tow 5klbs and you put 8k on it, exceeding its design, therefore you are at fault."
If a "lifted to the sky" truck had an accident and rolled over a car because the trucks bumper was 4-5 feet off the ground, then yes I belive you could argue the lift was negligent and caused the injuries to the occupants of the car.
Originally Posted By: edhackett
Originally Posted By: RangerGress
It's so obvious to me that the difference in tow ratings (~2500lbs) between ED and Hemi is due almost entirely to the engine that I don't understand how anyone could be unconvinced. The Hemi is almost twice as powerful as the ED (395hp vs. 240). Drag racing up the side of a mountain that would make a helova difference.
RangerGress wins the cookie. Horsepower is a time based measure, as is speed. Higher hp means the same work done in less time.
I've run some numbers for tractors that will serve to illustrate:
I've got a 1941 John Deere B rated at 18.5 hp at 1150 rpm which equals 84.49 ft/lbs of torque. The Kubota L5060 is rated at 44 hp at 2700 rpm which equals 85.59 ft/lbs of torque, the same as the JD for practical purposes. Were you to attach both to a plow that took 2700 lbs of force to move, the JD would be able to plow at 2.55 mph, the Kubota at 6.1 mph.
The EcoDiesel has the same torque as a HEMI(right between the 5.7 and 6.4), but due to it's lower horsepower, takes more time to do the same work. It can pull as much as a HEMI, but must do it at a lower speed, or pull less at the same speed, 40 mph in the case of J2807.
Ed
P.S. Very happy new EcoDiesel owner here. I'll post my impressions in the next couple of days in the Vehicles sub forum.
If this is true, why are diesel pickups (towing a load) passing everything else (towing a load) on the hills. Load down a gas engine and it just cannot compete with the diesel. Not saying it won't do OK, just that the diesel will do better.
Originally Posted By: RangerGress
It's so obvious to me that the difference in tow ratings (~2500lbs) between ED and Hemi is due almost entirely to the engine that I don't understand how anyone could be unconvinced. The Hemi is almost twice as powerful as the ED (395hp vs. 240). Drag racing up the side of a mountain that would make a helova difference.
RangerGress wins the cookie. Horsepower is a time based measure, as is speed. Higher hp means the same work done in less time.
I've run some numbers for tractors that will serve to illustrate:
I've got a 1941 John Deere B rated at 18.5 hp at 1150 rpm which equals 84.49 ft/lbs of torque. The Kubota L5060 is rated at 44 hp at 2700 rpm which equals 85.59 ft/lbs of torque, the same as the JD for practical purposes. Were you to attach both to a plow that took 2700 lbs of force to move, the JD would be able to plow at 2.55 mph, the Kubota at 6.1 mph.
The EcoDiesel has the same torque as a HEMI(right between the 5.7 and 6.4), but due to it's lower horsepower, takes more time to do the same work. It can pull as much as a HEMI, but must do it at a lower speed, or pull less at the same speed, 40 mph in the case of J2807.
Ed
P.S. Very happy new EcoDiesel owner here. I'll post my impressions in the next couple of days in the Vehicles sub forum.
If this is true, why are diesel pickups (towing a load) passing everything else (towing a load) on the hills. Load down a gas engine and it just cannot compete with the diesel. Not saying it won't do OK, just that the diesel will do better.
390 HP for the 5.7 Ram hemi, 425 hp for the 6.4 Ram hemi, so yes they are over 400 hp now.
However, IMO it is not hp that is the important number, it is torque, and also how low an RPM that that torque comes in. A gas engine that achieves 400 ft lbs of torque at 5000 rpm is not as powerful, and therefore will not tow as well as a diesel that achieves 400 ft lbs of torque at 1600 rpm.
However, IMO it is not hp that is the important number, it is torque, and also how low an RPM that that torque comes in. A gas engine that achieves 400 ft lbs of torque at 5000 rpm is not as powerful, and therefore will not tow as well as a diesel that achieves 400 ft lbs of torque at 1600 rpm.
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Actually, that is a ton more power. Which is why tractor trailers crawl up hills. Gobs of torque but no hp. Or more properly, low hp/ton.
Horsepower is a measure of how fast you are doing work. Torque is a measure of applied force. Torque is nice, but you can apply torque to a stuck bolt, not have it turn, and result in no work done.
To use your example, let's say those two trucks are doing the same speed up a hill. The diesel is making 400 ft lb torque, as is the gasser; but the gasser is spinning, what three times faster? Gears reduce shaft speed down to get the same wheel speed--but now there is 1,200 ft lb of torque. Whereas the diesel is not getting that same gearing down effect.
Horsepower is a measure of how fast you are doing work. Torque is a measure of applied force. Torque is nice, but you can apply torque to a stuck bolt, not have it turn, and result in no work done.
To use your example, let's say those two trucks are doing the same speed up a hill. The diesel is making 400 ft lb torque, as is the gasser; but the gasser is spinning, what three times faster? Gears reduce shaft speed down to get the same wheel speed--but now there is 1,200 ft lb of torque. Whereas the diesel is not getting that same gearing down effect.
I thought a longer powerband was better than a shorter one.
I used to think that the shorter torque type powerband was better than an 8000 rpm powerband but the same power output.
Then I think it was overkill that explained that the longer the powerband the better because it translates to more potential work can be performed.
Iirc he explained it pretty well.
I used to think that the shorter torque type powerband was better than an 8000 rpm powerband but the same power output.
Then I think it was overkill that explained that the longer the powerband the better because it translates to more potential work can be performed.
Iirc he explained it pretty well.
If a gas engine and a diesel both make 400hp, they'll both climb a hill with a load at the same speed. The difference is, the diesel will be sitting at its power peak at 2500 rpm, while the gas motor may need to spin 5500 rpm to make the same power, leading to the driver backing off the throttle and crawling up the hill (as they feel bad revving it that high).
Isn't horsepower just mathematically figured out using torque and RPM. Lets say you have two engines: Which has more towing power?
1. 375 ft lbs torque at 4400 rpm 345 hp at 5600 rpm
2. 420 ft lbs torque at 2000 rpm 240 hp at 3600 rpm
I say #2 with 105 less hp is the more powerful engine and will be the better engine for towing.
1. 375 ft lbs torque at 4400 rpm 345 hp at 5600 rpm
2. 420 ft lbs torque at 2000 rpm 240 hp at 3600 rpm
I say #2 with 105 less hp is the more powerful engine and will be the better engine for towing.
Originally Posted By: rslifkin
If a gas engine and a diesel both make 400hp, they'll both climb a hill with a load at the same speed. The difference is, the diesel will be sitting at its power peak at 2500 rpm, while the gas motor may need to spin 5500 rpm to make the same power, leading to the driver backing off the throttle and crawling up the hill (as they feel bad revving it that high).
So then were back at MPG and engine longevity. A engine spinning twice as fast will get worse mileage and wear faster.
If a gas engine and a diesel both make 400hp, they'll both climb a hill with a load at the same speed. The difference is, the diesel will be sitting at its power peak at 2500 rpm, while the gas motor may need to spin 5500 rpm to make the same power, leading to the driver backing off the throttle and crawling up the hill (as they feel bad revving it that high).
So then were back at MPG and engine longevity. A engine spinning twice as fast will get worse mileage and wear faster.
Originally Posted By: rslifkin
If a gas engine and a diesel both make 400hp, they'll both climb a hill with a load at the same speed. The difference is, the diesel will be sitting at its power peak at 2500 rpm, while the gas motor may need to spin 5500 rpm to make the same power, leading to the driver backing off the throttle and crawling up the hill (as they feel bad revving it that high).
I don't think this is right. A formula one engine puts out what...8 or 900 HP at 18,000 rpm or so. I don't think if put in a truck chassis it could tow anything, it doesn't have the torque. Max HP is not the important number in a tow vehicle, max torque is. In the example above with a gas and diesel both with 400 HP, the diesel will out tow the gas any day of the year because it has gobs more torque.
If a gas engine and a diesel both make 400hp, they'll both climb a hill with a load at the same speed. The difference is, the diesel will be sitting at its power peak at 2500 rpm, while the gas motor may need to spin 5500 rpm to make the same power, leading to the driver backing off the throttle and crawling up the hill (as they feel bad revving it that high).
I don't think this is right. A formula one engine puts out what...8 or 900 HP at 18,000 rpm or so. I don't think if put in a truck chassis it could tow anything, it doesn't have the torque. Max HP is not the important number in a tow vehicle, max torque is. In the example above with a gas and diesel both with 400 HP, the diesel will out tow the gas any day of the year because it has gobs more torque.
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And no one has mentioned gear ratio difference.
Torque x RPM / 5252 = HP
HP x 5252 / RPM = Torque
Torque x RPM / 5252 = HP
HP x 5252 / RPM = Torque
I am considering all these examples using normally offered and equal ratios for the pickup trucks. Of course with the right gear ratio (reduction), you could tow a trailer over the Rockies with a 3 hp lawn mower engine. It just would be going a fraction of a mile per hour.
I think it was Sinclair that advertised a long time ago that a 3 hp engine and a gallon of "their" gasoline could lift the Empire State Building. Technically possible with gear reduction.
I think it was Sinclair that advertised a long time ago that a 3 hp engine and a gallon of "their" gasoline could lift the Empire State Building. Technically possible with gear reduction.
Diesel fuel has more energy in it.
Originally Posted By: another Todd
Originally Posted By: edhackett
Originally Posted By: RangerGress
It's so obvious to me that the difference in tow ratings (~2500lbs) between ED and Hemi is due almost entirely to the engine that I don't understand how anyone could be unconvinced. The Hemi is almost twice as powerful as the ED (395hp vs. 240). Drag racing up the side of a mountain that would make a helova difference.
RangerGress wins the cookie. Horsepower is a time based measure, as is speed. Higher hp means the same work done in less time.
I've run some numbers for tractors that will serve to illustrate:
I've got a 1941 John Deere B rated at 18.5 hp at 1150 rpm which equals 84.49 ft/lbs of torque. The Kubota L5060 is rated at 44 hp at 2700 rpm which equals 85.59 ft/lbs of torque, the same as the JD for practical purposes. Were you to attach both to a plow that took 2700 lbs of force to move, the JD would be able to plow at 2.55 mph, the Kubota at 6.1 mph.
The EcoDiesel has the same torque as a HEMI(right between the 5.7 and 6.4), but due to it's lower horsepower, takes more time to do the same work. It can pull as much as a HEMI, but must do it at a lower speed, or pull less at the same speed, 40 mph in the case of J2807.
Ed
P.S. Very happy new EcoDiesel owner here. I'll post my impressions in the next couple of days in the Vehicles sub forum.
If this is true, why are diesel pickups (towing a load) passing everything else (towing a load) on the hills. Load down a gas engine and it just cannot compete with the diesel. Not saying it won't do OK, just that the diesel will do better.
Two reasons for this in modern light duty pickups.
1. Diesels are typically boosted, at higher elevations boosted engines are better able to maintain their HP ratings. At 9k feet your Hemi is probably only making 290hp or less, where as a 6.7L Cummins once on boost is making its full 400 or whatever the new ones are rated at.
2. In this case the Hemi has 410ft pounds of twist, the Cummins has I believe around 900. That's how you get up hills.
Back in the 80's and earlier it was reversed, diesel technology was not up to speed so large gas engines were much more powerful and passed them up the hills.
Originally Posted By: edhackett
Originally Posted By: RangerGress
It's so obvious to me that the difference in tow ratings (~2500lbs) between ED and Hemi is due almost entirely to the engine that I don't understand how anyone could be unconvinced. The Hemi is almost twice as powerful as the ED (395hp vs. 240). Drag racing up the side of a mountain that would make a helova difference.
RangerGress wins the cookie. Horsepower is a time based measure, as is speed. Higher hp means the same work done in less time.
I've run some numbers for tractors that will serve to illustrate:
I've got a 1941 John Deere B rated at 18.5 hp at 1150 rpm which equals 84.49 ft/lbs of torque. The Kubota L5060 is rated at 44 hp at 2700 rpm which equals 85.59 ft/lbs of torque, the same as the JD for practical purposes. Were you to attach both to a plow that took 2700 lbs of force to move, the JD would be able to plow at 2.55 mph, the Kubota at 6.1 mph.
The EcoDiesel has the same torque as a HEMI(right between the 5.7 and 6.4), but due to it's lower horsepower, takes more time to do the same work. It can pull as much as a HEMI, but must do it at a lower speed, or pull less at the same speed, 40 mph in the case of J2807.
Ed
P.S. Very happy new EcoDiesel owner here. I'll post my impressions in the next couple of days in the Vehicles sub forum.
If this is true, why are diesel pickups (towing a load) passing everything else (towing a load) on the hills. Load down a gas engine and it just cannot compete with the diesel. Not saying it won't do OK, just that the diesel will do better.
Two reasons for this in modern light duty pickups.
1. Diesels are typically boosted, at higher elevations boosted engines are better able to maintain their HP ratings. At 9k feet your Hemi is probably only making 290hp or less, where as a 6.7L Cummins once on boost is making its full 400 or whatever the new ones are rated at.
2. In this case the Hemi has 410ft pounds of twist, the Cummins has I believe around 900. That's how you get up hills.
Back in the 80's and earlier it was reversed, diesel technology was not up to speed so large gas engines were much more powerful and passed them up the hills.
Interesting discussions - torque is what gets work done and horsepower is how fast you get that work done. In theory you could tow a house up the Eisenhower Pass with a weedwhacker engine. It just may not make it to the top in our lifetimes!
This is why I love my Ecoboosts. Flat torque curve like a Diesel, great torque AND horsepower. They run like Diesels - spooling up the turbos to go up hills vs downshift, etc.
The downside is they are thirsty when run hard.
The upside is the cost to acquire is less, the cost for fuel is less, and the maintenance is less. Running the #'s it may be a little cheaper over 100k.
If you're thinking Diesel you really should take an EB out for a spin. All the advantages of a Diesel and none of the disadvantages. There's a reason they are the king of the hill in towing with a 1/2 ton.
This is why I love my Ecoboosts. Flat torque curve like a Diesel, great torque AND horsepower. They run like Diesels - spooling up the turbos to go up hills vs downshift, etc.
The downside is they are thirsty when run hard.
The upside is the cost to acquire is less, the cost for fuel is less, and the maintenance is less. Running the #'s it may be a little cheaper over 100k.
If you're thinking Diesel you really should take an EB out for a spin. All the advantages of a Diesel and none of the disadvantages. There's a reason they are the king of the hill in towing with a 1/2 ton.
I'll be driving everything for sure. For the kind of money they want for new trucks I will definitely be doing my homework.
Originally Posted By: another Todd
I'll be driving everything for sure. For the kind of money they want for new trucks I will definitely be doing my homework.
Driving them is the key. My Wife and I researched over a year on the big 3 trucks, then took out vehicles for 1 or 2 day test drives.
I can't believe anyone wouldn't notice the same things we did.
Don't just do a 20 minute test drive...
I'll be driving everything for sure. For the kind of money they want for new trucks I will definitely be doing my homework.
Driving them is the key. My Wife and I researched over a year on the big 3 trucks, then took out vehicles for 1 or 2 day test drives.
I can't believe anyone wouldn't notice the same things we did.
Don't just do a 20 minute test drive...
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