Additive depletion video
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Well, he mentions several ways in which an additive can leave the oil. Attaching to other additives, dropout, through filtration etc.
One thing that i found interesting is that he said additives can be degraded but still detectable by elemental analysis. So, when people are trying to judge condition of oil by UOA the additives shown may not actually be working as well as when oil was fresh/new. Just another reason not to pay for UOAs that cost as much as an oil change, unless your looking for fuel, coolant, or extending over 12k miles, jmo.
Originally Posted By: SLATRON
One thing that i found interesting is that he said additives can be degraded but still detectable by elemental analysis. So, when people are trying to judge condition of oil by UOA the additives shown may not actually be working as well as when oil was fresh/new. Just another reason not to pay for UOAs that cost as much as an oil change, unless your looking for fuel, coolant, or extending over 12k miles, jmo.
It was interesting to lean that some additives can be rendered inert and still be detected.
One might want to know other information as well, information that could be of value beyond that of an oil change. UOA's are good for spotting trends that can lead to early intervention.
One thing that i found interesting is that he said additives can be degraded but still detectable by elemental analysis. So, when people are trying to judge condition of oil by UOA the additives shown may not actually be working as well as when oil was fresh/new. Just another reason not to pay for UOAs that cost as much as an oil change, unless your looking for fuel, coolant, or extending over 12k miles, jmo.
It was interesting to lean that some additives can be rendered inert and still be detected.
One might want to know other information as well, information that could be of value beyond that of an oil change. UOA's are good for spotting trends that can lead to early intervention.
MolaKule
Staff member
Quote:
Well, he mentions several ways in which an additive can leave the oil. Attaching to other additives, dropout, through filtration etc.
I have yet to see any current additive package with particles large enough to be filtered out.
Quote:
One thing that i found interesting is that he said additives can be degraded but still detectable by elemental analysis. So, when people are trying to judge condition of oil by UOA the additives shown may not actually be working as well as when oil was fresh/new.
The mass of the additive is still there and detectable.
A UOA is still a good thing for trending when compared to a recent VOAA.
Well, he mentions several ways in which an additive can leave the oil. Attaching to other additives, dropout, through filtration etc.
I have yet to see any current additive package with particles large enough to be filtered out.
Quote:
One thing that i found interesting is that he said additives can be degraded but still detectable by elemental analysis. So, when people are trying to judge condition of oil by UOA the additives shown may not actually be working as well as when oil was fresh/new.
The mass of the additive is still there and detectable.
A UOA is still a good thing for trending when compared to a recent VOAA.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: SLATRON
So, when people are trying to judge condition of oil by UOA the additives shown may not actually be working as well as when oil was fresh/new. Just another reason not to pay for UOAs that cost as much as an oil change, unless your looking for fuel, coolant, or extending over 12k miles, jmo.
This is lubrication 101, just because its (metal element) evidenced by analysis DOES NOT MEAN the compound is active. A little knowledge is dangerous - unfortunately, many go off half cocked after lurking about here for a bit. Pseudo experts posting about confusing others.
So, when people are trying to judge condition of oil by UOA the additives shown may not actually be working as well as when oil was fresh/new. Just another reason not to pay for UOAs that cost as much as an oil change, unless your looking for fuel, coolant, or extending over 12k miles, jmo.
This is lubrication 101, just because its (metal element) evidenced by analysis DOES NOT MEAN the compound is active. A little knowledge is dangerous - unfortunately, many go off half cocked after lurking about here for a bit. Pseudo experts posting about confusing others.
Didn't I say that the detergent goes down with particle settling? Jim confirmed that thinking... So the "Mobil_2" isn't that of a good idea for the purpose of keeping clean engines, anyway. You gotta live with all that debries floating around.
In sixteen years of looking at my reports, the only thing I've seen drop in PPM from VOA to UOA is boron. In cars and diesel pickups it isn't by a large amount. However with a product like Delo 400 (in my big rig) it will drop from 500+ ppm down to 100-200 ppm over an oci.
Moly, calcium, magnesium, phosphorous and zinc may be lower, but often it is actually higher from voa to uoa but usually by small amounts either way. But much of what is picked up in ppm has become inert (speaking about calcium/magnesium here).
I've never concerned myself with the others, the boron just intrigues me. It drops so much in heavy duty/severe use and always wondered where it went.
Moly, calcium, magnesium, phosphorous and zinc may be lower, but often it is actually higher from voa to uoa but usually by small amounts either way. But much of what is picked up in ppm has become inert (speaking about calcium/magnesium here).
I've never concerned myself with the others, the boron just intrigues me. It drops so much in heavy duty/severe use and always wondered where it went.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
I have yet to see any current additive package with particles large enough to be filtered out.
No, but if the detergent and/or dispersant are bound to a larger soot particle, this can be filtered out, and the additive stays with it.
There are some techniques that can distinguish between active and spent additives. It's worth noting that some additives 'metabolise' in use and form new structures that are, themselves, useful molecules. ZDDP, for example, and some antioxidants.
As stated though, if you test for Zn, all you know is how much Zn is in the oil, not what form it is in. Actually it is the P that is more pertinent to the wear protection, but the same applies. When the ZDDP is oxidised and exhausted, there will be zinc oxides and simple phosphates but these do nothing to help performance. NMR can tell you what's what, but no run-of-the-mill lab will have one. Some potentiometric tests can infer remaining useful life from the electrochemical properties of the oil (the basis of some of the onboard oil sensors).
UOA needs to be multifaceted and holistic.
I have yet to see any current additive package with particles large enough to be filtered out.
No, but if the detergent and/or dispersant are bound to a larger soot particle, this can be filtered out, and the additive stays with it.
There are some techniques that can distinguish between active and spent additives. It's worth noting that some additives 'metabolise' in use and form new structures that are, themselves, useful molecules. ZDDP, for example, and some antioxidants.
As stated though, if you test for Zn, all you know is how much Zn is in the oil, not what form it is in. Actually it is the P that is more pertinent to the wear protection, but the same applies. When the ZDDP is oxidised and exhausted, there will be zinc oxides and simple phosphates but these do nothing to help performance. NMR can tell you what's what, but no run-of-the-mill lab will have one. Some potentiometric tests can infer remaining useful life from the electrochemical properties of the oil (the basis of some of the onboard oil sensors).
UOA needs to be multifaceted and holistic.
Some dealers are saying to not got below 15% on dexos1 (a safety margin?), but it depends if it is a blend or fully syn, IMO. Could you really go to 0% with a fully synthetic oil?
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
Well, he mentions several ways in which an additive can leave the oil. Attaching to other additives, dropout, through filtration etc.
I have yet to see any current additive package with particles large enough to be filtered out.
I was referring to virgin PI packages in virgin base oils, I.E., new oils.
Quote:
Well, he mentions several ways in which an additive can leave the oil. Attaching to other additives, dropout, through filtration etc.
I have yet to see any current additive package with particles large enough to be filtered out.
I was referring to virgin PI packages in virgin base oils, I.E., new oils.
Originally Posted By: weasley
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
I have yet to see any current additive package with particles large enough to be filtered out.
No, but if the detergent and/or dispersant are bound to a larger soot particle, this can be filtered out, and the additive stays with it.
There are some techniques that can distinguish between active and spent additives. It's worth noting that some additives 'metabolise' in use and form new structures that are, themselves, useful molecules. ZDDP, for example, and some antioxidants.
As stated though, if you test for Zn, all you know is how much Zn is in the oil, not what form it is in. Actually it is the P that is more pertinent to the wear protection, but the same applies. When the ZDDP is oxidised and exhausted, there will be zinc oxides and simple phosphates but these do nothing to help performance. NMR can tell you what's what, but no run-of-the-mill lab will have one.
weasley is there any existing data that provides the rate of ZDDP depletion in typical PCMO useage as mileage accumulates?
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
I have yet to see any current additive package with particles large enough to be filtered out.
No, but if the detergent and/or dispersant are bound to a larger soot particle, this can be filtered out, and the additive stays with it.
There are some techniques that can distinguish between active and spent additives. It's worth noting that some additives 'metabolise' in use and form new structures that are, themselves, useful molecules. ZDDP, for example, and some antioxidants.
As stated though, if you test for Zn, all you know is how much Zn is in the oil, not what form it is in. Actually it is the P that is more pertinent to the wear protection, but the same applies. When the ZDDP is oxidised and exhausted, there will be zinc oxides and simple phosphates but these do nothing to help performance. NMR can tell you what's what, but no run-of-the-mill lab will have one.
weasley is there any existing data that provides the rate of ZDDP depletion in typical PCMO useage as mileage accumulates?
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: weasley
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
I have yet to see any current additive package with particles large enough to be filtered out.
No, but if the detergent and/or dispersant are bound to a larger soot particle, this can be filtered out, and the additive stays with it.
There are some techniques that can distinguish between active and spent additives. It's worth noting that some additives 'metabolise' in use and form new structures that are, themselves, useful molecules. ZDDP, for example, and some antioxidants.
As stated though, if you test for Zn, all you know is how much Zn is in the oil, not what form it is in. Actually it is the P that is more pertinent to the wear protection, but the same applies. When the ZDDP is oxidised and exhausted, there will be zinc oxides and simple phosphates but these do nothing to help performance. NMR can tell you what's what, but no run-of-the-mill lab will have one.
weasley is there any existing data that provides the rate of ZDDP depletion in typical PCMO useage as mileage accumulates?
I'd like to see the same for boron and any type of moly as well, since many in the additives forum are giving me a very hard time for wanting to add more of these to the middle/end of an OCI, to make up for the natural depletion.
Originally Posted By: weasley
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
I have yet to see any current additive package with particles large enough to be filtered out.
No, but if the detergent and/or dispersant are bound to a larger soot particle, this can be filtered out, and the additive stays with it.
There are some techniques that can distinguish between active and spent additives. It's worth noting that some additives 'metabolise' in use and form new structures that are, themselves, useful molecules. ZDDP, for example, and some antioxidants.
As stated though, if you test for Zn, all you know is how much Zn is in the oil, not what form it is in. Actually it is the P that is more pertinent to the wear protection, but the same applies. When the ZDDP is oxidised and exhausted, there will be zinc oxides and simple phosphates but these do nothing to help performance. NMR can tell you what's what, but no run-of-the-mill lab will have one.
weasley is there any existing data that provides the rate of ZDDP depletion in typical PCMO useage as mileage accumulates?
I'd like to see the same for boron and any type of moly as well, since many in the additives forum are giving me a very hard time for wanting to add more of these to the middle/end of an OCI, to make up for the natural depletion.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: weasley
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
I have yet to see any current additive package with particles large enough to be filtered out.
No, but if the detergent and/or dispersant are bound to a larger soot particle, this can be filtered out, and the additive stays with it.
There are some techniques that can distinguish between active and spent additives. It's worth noting that some additives 'metabolise' in use and form new structures that are, themselves, useful molecules. ZDDP, for example, and some antioxidants.
As stated though, if you test for Zn, all you know is how much Zn is in the oil, not what form it is in. Actually it is the P that is more pertinent to the wear protection, but the same applies. When the ZDDP is oxidised and exhausted, there will be zinc oxides and simple phosphates but these do nothing to help performance. NMR can tell you what's what, but no run-of-the-mill lab will have one.
weasley is there any existing data that provides the rate of ZDDP depletion in typical PCMO useage as mileage accumulates?
I'm not aware of any published data, but I would be surprised if there wasn't some study published about it, since ZDDP seems to be a favourite academic topic in tribological theses and patents.
Originally Posted By: weasley
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
I have yet to see any current additive package with particles large enough to be filtered out.
No, but if the detergent and/or dispersant are bound to a larger soot particle, this can be filtered out, and the additive stays with it.
There are some techniques that can distinguish between active and spent additives. It's worth noting that some additives 'metabolise' in use and form new structures that are, themselves, useful molecules. ZDDP, for example, and some antioxidants.
As stated though, if you test for Zn, all you know is how much Zn is in the oil, not what form it is in. Actually it is the P that is more pertinent to the wear protection, but the same applies. When the ZDDP is oxidised and exhausted, there will be zinc oxides and simple phosphates but these do nothing to help performance. NMR can tell you what's what, but no run-of-the-mill lab will have one.
weasley is there any existing data that provides the rate of ZDDP depletion in typical PCMO useage as mileage accumulates?
I'm not aware of any published data, but I would be surprised if there wasn't some study published about it, since ZDDP seems to be a favourite academic topic in tribological theses and patents.
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