JASO FB FC FD Certification Question 2 stroke Oil

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Hello all, hoping you can help me out with something. I've been a 2-stroke dirt bike and snowmobile rider for 15 years, and starting about 5 yrs ago I got serious about my oil selections and was always careful to purchase at least "JASO FC" oil for my toys. I've felt good about this until last week...when I reviewed the official JASO list of certified oils (found at link below)...
http://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/2T_EV_LIST.pdf

Much to my sad surprise, the majority of 2 stroke oils I have been using that say "meet or exceeds JASO FC standards" on the bottle are NOT ON THE LIST. These include (but are not limited to):
- MasterPro 2-Cycle Sport Oil, claiming JASO FC Certification (sold at O'Reilly Auto)
- Lucas Semi-Synthetic 2 Cycle Oil, claiming to meet JASO FC & FD Standards
- Maxima Racing Snowmobile Tundra Oil, claiming to meet or exceed JASO FC
- Spectro Oils (multiple) claiming either of JASO FB or FC
- Shaeffer's 9006 Full Synthetic 2 Cycle, claiming to meet JASO FC & FD Standards
- I'm sure there are many more, a simple google search finds many with these claims that aren't on the JASO list at all either


Are these manufacturers simply putting this on the bottle with no testing so that I will buy it? Even though it is not certified? Who is determining that it meets JASO requirements if JASO isn't? Are these oils [censored] or do they really live up to their claims that they meet these standards? Has anyone done any testing on them?

Hoping someone has some answers that make some sense. I know I shouldn't believe everything I read on a bottle of oil, but claiming specific standards/certifications that simply haven't been obtained seems pretty low & shady. Thanks in advance for anyone's opinion.
 
Costs money to get tested and be on the list. Most companies just do their own testing and make the claim "meets or exceeds" Works fine for me.
 
It's unfortunate that manufacturers can put "meets or exceeds" xxxx spec, while not ever being tested to prove that the spec is met. It's also unfortunate that little to no 2 stroke oil testing goes on today.

However, quality oil from a quality manufacturer is going to be the smartest choice. The science is well understood by the major manufacturers.

Interestingly enough, you and I are the ones who do the testing today. If we find a product that does not work well, we avoid it. (Redline Racing Oil, for example) (It promotes corrosion)
 
Maxima, Spectro, Shaeffers and others will be top notch lubes. As other have said, it costs money to attain the actual certs for the current FD/EGD ratings.

One thing to remember is that with the JASO and ISO, the oil doesn't lube any better after the "B" level. What you get with "C" and "D" is better cleaning, lower smoke, less deposits and so on.

For sleds, I wouldn't hesitate to run Injex, Citgo Sea & Snow, Klotz, Ipone, Legend, Amsoil, Spectro, Maxima or any of the OEM lubes. They're all really good.


Side note: What do you ride in the winter?
 
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Costs money to get tested and be on the list. Most companies just do their own testing and make the claim "meets or exceeds" Works fine for me.


I had this thought initially as well, but then I noticed that Castrol alone has 37 different oils on this list, many very similar, others with the exact same name just a revised blend of the same oil. Castrol can do it 37 times, but others can't do it once? Seems strange to me.
 
Originally Posted By: Cujet
It's unfortunate that manufacturers can put "meets or exceeds" xxxx spec, while not ever being tested to prove that the spec is met. It's also unfortunate that little to no 2 stroke oil testing goes on today.

However, quality oil from a quality manufacturer is going to be the smartest choice. The science is well understood by the major manufacturers.

Interestingly enough, you and I are the ones who do the testing today. If we find a product that does not work well, we avoid it. (Redline Racing Oil, for example) (It promotes corrosion)

This is kind of my point of view, seems like to claim someone else's spec you should have to go through their testing. And if you don't want to do their testing fine, but why not show me the results from your testing related to lubricity, detergency, and exhaust? This would allow manufacturers to truly point out their product and let me/us/the consumer make informed decisions instead of just saying "Oil XXXX is a reputable, well-respected oil manufacturer so I will spend lots of $$$ on their Product YYYYYY even though they can't define their performance." Its like a car manufacturer who says they have a high performing engine but won't tell you what the horsepower, torque, or miles per gallon specs are.

Also, I agree even more that it is unfortunate how little 2 stroke oil testing goes on today. Manufacturers are going to have to keep cleaning up emissions more and more if the 2-stroke is going to survive, and it would seem oil testing could be a good thing for all of us.
 
Originally Posted By: The_Eric
One thing to remember is that with the JASO and ISO, the oil doesn't lube any better after the "B" level. What you get with "C" and "D" is better cleaning, lower smoke, less deposits and so on. For sleds, I wouldn't hesitate to run Injex, Citgo Sea & Snow, Klotz, Ipone, Legend, Amsoil, Spectro, Maxima or any of the OEM lubes. They're all really good.


Side note: What do you ride in the winter?


Yeah I hear ya on the JASO FB vs FC vs FD being close to each other in terms of lubricity performance. I am not necessarily concerned about whether or not one is FC instead of FD etc, moreso concerned that someone could make a garbage oil that wouldn't meet any specs, and simply put on the bottle "Meets or exceeds Jaso FD standards" and the consumer has no way of knowing how well the oil actually performs.


What do I ride in the winter? It depends, my brothers and I have a collection that includes 2004 & 2005 Skidoo MXZ 500ss sleds, a 2003 Arctic Cat F7, a couple of older Arctic Cat 700s, and even a 1987 Yamaha Exciter just for fun. You ride?
 
It's not just two stroke oils. Being there is no API spec for 4 stroke motorcycle oil, you won't find a API symbol on a bottle of Motorcycle specific oil. They says it will meet some Api rating, but isn't tested by anyone but the manufacturer. But they have no problem charging up to $16 a qt for their oils, and alot of people blindly pay it.,,,
 
Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
It's not just two stroke oils. Being there is no API spec for 4 stroke motorcycle oil, you won't find a API symbol on a bottle of Motorcycle specific oil. They says it will meet some Api rating, but isn't tested by anyone but the manufacturer. But they have no problem charging up to $16 a qt for their oils, and alot of people blindly pay it.,,,


Yes, true. HOWEVER, as I mentioned above, "we are the ones doing the testing" and "the science is well understood". With a little knowledge, and some user experience results, we can (and do) draw accurate conclusions.

Mobil 1 motorcycle oils: 10W-40 and especially the 20W-50 are truly superb race car and turbocharged engine oils. They are that robust! So, while they are not made to passenger car specs, they are excellent oils (likely unsurpassed) for certain applications.
 
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Originally Posted By: Cujet
It's unfortunate that manufacturers can put "meets or exceeds" xxxx spec, while not ever being tested to prove that the spec is met. It's also unfortunate that little to no 2 stroke oil testing goes on today.

However, quality oil from a quality manufacturer is going to be the smartest choice. The science is well understood by the major manufacturers.

Interestingly enough, you and I are the ones who do the testing today. If we find a product that does not work well, we avoid it. (Redline Racing Oil, for example) (It promotes corrosion)

Funny how this common sense statement about putting a cert on a label, but no testing done often escapes the Amsoil crowd. That being said, I've used enough different 2 stroke brands to know that the science is well understood by the blenders, and picking a quality oil isn't really that hard. Some oils have certain quantifiable aspects, but overall, lubricating a 2 stroke isn't rocket science, and many of the oils have similar compositions. For example,(may have changed by now), Lucas 2 stroke and Castrol Act-Evo had virtually identical MSDS sheets at one time. Redline has always caused minor corrosion in brass. I ran gallons of that stuff and observed it first hand. I continued to run it because it works, and I can replace jets. I ran a bunch of MX2T from Mobil also. Very clean... it should be with 25% kerosene as part of it's composition. I still have a few quarts of Castrol A747 left. The exhaust was always filthy and spooging, but as far as power, and long ring and cylinder life, it was hard to beat and for an air cooled motor, it would still be my go to choice. Pick an oil and go ride, boat, ski, whatever. Most of them are really good enough from known brand names that something else will crop up first before the oil fails.
 
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Originally Posted By: beanoil
Originally Posted By: Cujet
It's unfortunate that manufacturers can put "meets or exceeds" xxxx spec, while not ever being tested to prove that the spec is met. It's also unfortunate that little to no 2 stroke oil testing goes on today.

However, quality oil from a quality manufacturer is going to be the smartest choice. The science is well understood by the major manufacturers.

Interestingly enough, you and I are the ones who do the testing today. If we find a product that does not work well, we avoid it. (Redline Racing Oil, for example) (It promotes corrosion)

Funny how this common sense statement about putting a cert on a label, but no testing done often escapes the Amsoil crowd.


Did you just imply Amsoil doesn't test their oil?

And what is "the Amsoil crowd"?

Please man, if Amsoil doesn't test their 2 stroke oils, let us know of this evidence. Details please.
 
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