Spin-balancing isn't working... will Road Force?

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I've picked up a nasty vibration between 71 and 74 miles an hour. With the interstate speed limit at 70 in Illinois, that's a horrible speed for a vibration to manifest itself.

The tire dealer has now re-balanced the tires twice, with no success in removing the vibration. I'm tired (no pun intended) of them screwing around here, and would like them to resolve the issue.

Took it in on Monday (for the second attempt at re-balancing), and from what I've felt, I told the tech that I thought that one of the tires on the rear axle has a problem. So, he pulls them off, and re-balances them. When he got done, he tells me that he drove it himself, and all is good. He also told me if it continues, that I need to check my drive shaft, u-joints, rear brakes... (insert a laundry list of any other component that might possibly cause a rear axle vibration here).

Since there is an interstate a half-mile away from the store, I take it out on the interstate... still vibrates. Nothing has changed. I go back to the shop, let him know that the vibration is still there. Upon hearing that, the tech gets all [censored] off, all red in the face, tells me that he's not doing anything more.

So, I responded with since he's told me that he's not doing anything more, that he can get me a manager. He then points towards the main building, and storms off, slamming a door on the way just to make his point. (With a handful of now wide-eyed customers in the waiting room).

So, I went and found the manager.

The manager agreed to Road Force balance all four tires this afternoon at 4:30pm.

Out of sheer curiosity last night, I took the spare, and pulled the driver's side rear tire off of the vehicle, and put on the spare on in its place. Let's see if I can at least figure out which tire is the problem, or if I may have a mechanical issue of some sort.

Luckily, with 1 out of 4 odds... I picked the correct tire on the first try. I took the driver's side rear tire off, swapped it with the spare it, and at 71-74mph... 90% of the vibration has now disappeared (who knows how well balanced the spare tire is...).

On the tire that vibrates, they have 4 ounces of weight (16 - 1/4 ounce stick on weights) all piled up in behind one of the spokes on the aluminum wheel, with no other weight anywhere else on the wheel. That should be a sign of a potential problem right there.

When I go to the appointment this afternoon, do I tell them up front that I know that around 90% of the vibration is coming from driver's side rear tire (note that I was correct about the problem tire being on the rear axle), or do I let them do the Road Force balancing first, and see if THEY can finally figure it out?

What are the odds that the Road Force machine can reduce some of the 4 ounces of weight on that one wheel? I'm also wondering if the tire has slipped a belt, and there's no fixing this issue.

Last night, I very discretely marked the position of the stem on each of the tires, to see if they end up re-positioning any of the tires on the rim, with the Road Force balancing.
 
Are your rims "Hub centric" or "lug centric". A genius "balancer" tossed the adaptors which make my Borbet 15 x 7 wheels Toyota hub centric and they could balance them until dooms day and not stop the car from vibrating. This is the same class of careful employee who will toss your quality valve caps and replace them with those cheap plastic things with no gasket.
 
Originally Posted By: mrsilv04
Last night, I very discretely marked the position of the stem on each of the tires, to see if they end up re-positioning any of the tires on the rim, with the Road Force balancing.

What you're talking about is match mounting in order to reduce the amount of balancing weights needed. It's different from road force balancing that can detect tire irregularities by applying 1200 lbs of pressure to simulate the weight of the vehicle on the tire as it rolls down the road. A tire can be perfectly balanced, yet cause vibration, and that's when you resort to road force balancing to figure out what's going on.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: mrsilv04
Last night, I very discretely marked the position of the stem on each of the tires, to see if they end up re-positioning any of the tires on the rim, with the Road Force balancing.

What you're talking about is match mounting in order to reduce the amount of balancing weights needed. It's different from road force balancing that can detect tire irregularities by applying 1200 lbs of pressure to simulate the weight of the vehicle on the tire as it rolls down the road. A tire can be perfectly balanced, yet cause vibration, and that's when you resort to road force balancing to figure out what's going on.
Don't better quality tires have a mark which relates to the position of the tire in relation to the valve stem hole?
 
I would go back to square one.

What's the wheel runout? Has it been "curbed"? Replace the wheel...

Is there tread separation in the tire? Replace the tire...

I doubt that balancing is going to do anything...and you've already proven that it's this wheel/tire combo that is the problem...
 
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Don't better quality tires have a mark which relates to the position of the tire in relation to the valve stem hole?


No, not always. Lots of tires have no markings or some kind of marking that may not refer to the valve stem location.

The 4 oz. of weight the OP noted is curious. My suspicion is whatever is causing all that weight (which could be as simple as someone screwing up and putting on too much) won't be fixed by using a RF machine. But who knows, I'm not there to look at the tire in person.
 
I'd bet you have a tire that's defective (out of round). Its been my experience that this is usually the problem when repeated spin balancing doesn't work.
 
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Are your rims "Hub centric" or "lug centric". A genius "balancer" tossed the adaptors which make my Borbet 15 x 7 wheels Toyota hub centric and they could balance them until dooms day and not stop the car from vibrating. This is the same class of careful employee who will toss your quality valve caps and replace them with those cheap plastic things with no gasket.


I'm not following your comment. I know my Camry and Toyota are hub-centric.

Am curious as I think all the replacement tires on my Toyota's are slightly off in balance. But I'm guessing the balancing was hub centric (the snow tires on the truck certainly wire).

IIRC the OP has a late model GM Silverado. No idea if those are hub centric or not.

*

I'd tell the manager all the details, including what you found. It looks real bad when a customer swaps one wheel around and finds the issue which supposedly doesn't exist. If nothing else it should get to the bottom quicker.
 
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Are your rims "Hub centric" or "lug centric". A genius "balancer" tossed the adaptors which make my Borbet 15 x 7 wheels Toyota hub centric and they could balance them until dooms day and not stop the car from vibrating. This is the same class of careful employee who will toss your quality valve caps and replace them with those cheap plastic things with no gasket.


I'm not following your comment. I know my Camry and Toyota are hub-centric.

I think he's talking about the need for centering rings when/if using aftermarket rims. Without them, there will be a gap between the hub and the rim and it may cause vibration.
 
Quote:
I've picked up a nasty vibration
That would likely be either a lost wheel weight (which we now know isn't the problem), or a tire that has internal damage. An out of round tire or one with a road force problem (stiff on one side, not so stiff on the other) probably would be like this from new. You probably need a new tire or retire this one to the spare position.

Not all new tires from all manufacturers are marked. Not all manufacturers use the same markings. The general scheme is for a red dot on the tire sidewall to indicate the region of maximum road force variation (stiff sidewall spot), and that goes at the low spot on the rim sometimes marked with a dimple (rims are not perfectly concentric). A yellow dot indicates the light point on the tire and should be matched with the valve stem. If you have both a red dot and know the spot of minimum radial runout of the wheel, match those and ignore the yellow dot. If you don't have both of these, ignore the red dot and put the yellow dot by the stem.
 
If putting the spare on helped its probley the tire. Road Force will not solve the problem in that case. Wants the year and model.
 
The road force balancer used correctly should be able to tell the tech if the tire or wheel has excessive run out and if force matching can bring it within specification. If not they will at least know which one has the issue. From your description I would guess you have an out of round tire.
 
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Are your rims "Hub centric" or "lug centric". A genius "balancer" tossed the adaptors which make my Borbet 15 x 7 wheels Toyota hub centric and they could balance them until dooms day and not stop the car from vibrating.


Hub centric rings don't eliminate a vibration... they help center the wheel when tightening down the lug nuts. When the wheel is not hubcentric, you can tighten down the wheel ever so slightly off center, especially if you do final torque with the wheel on the ground with weight on it. Ever notice how the wheel sort of "hangs..." off the studs... thta's because the wheel lug holes are bigger than the stud. If you tighten down a non-hubcentric wheel hanging like that, you can mis-align the wheel by that little bit, and it will vibrate.

Go to an Auto-x event or roadcourse, and check out the wheels swaps going on... many many guys don't use hub rings, they just torque the wheels slowly and evenly while the wheel is in the air...holding the wheel up a bit with their feet... the lug nuts center the wheel. And if the wheel is properly centered, and balanced... it won't vibrate... even without centering rings.

I once had a wheel with mis-drilled lug holes... off by just a millimeter... but the wheel always had a vibration. The center bore was good, so the wheel spun true on a balance machine, and balanced out fine, but it always vibrated to some degree. Finally noticed when we spun the wheel on the car, and noticed a little hop... then put a lug circle adapter on the balance machine, and voila, the cause was confirmed... only took a couple of years to figure out...

And, as I have learned, and someone else mentioned as well....

Vibration is not always balance related, in fact, in my experience, it is more often NOT related to balance. Yes, sometimes a wheel will shed a weight, or a tire will wear enough to change the balance, but it is often the result of bent wheels, or, most frequently, road force variance. Balance machines are pretty reliable, rarely off by enough to matter, and pretty easy to use properly. People often blame the machine, or the tire tech... but if the machine says it's balanced, it usually is... something else is causing the vibration.

My advice for a stubborn wheel/tire... balance the assembly, and drive on it. If it vibrates, LEAVE all the weights on, and spin it again on the balancer. If you get zero's , or something very close, chances are the "balance..." is fine, but road force is an issue. Tire shops tend to just yank off the old weights, and re-balance. The machine again shows "balanced..." you drive away, and the car still vibrates... because it's not the "balance..." causing the vibration. If the second spin shows balanced, a sometimes quick fix is to break the bead, rotate the tire 180*, then re-balance. If the tire stiff spot was near the wheel high spot, rotating the tire can move it closer to the low spot, and sometimes eliminate the vibration. This is what road force balancing does, but the machine measures the wheel and tire to help match up the assembly...

If people knew how much effort oem's put into getting that glass smooth ride... they wouldn't be surprised at how hard it is to achieve at the local tire store...

Oem tires are manufactured to tighter tolerances, tested, then marked for road force (stiff spot...). Those tires that don't meet oem specs are rejected...

Oem wheels are measured, tested, and the low spot marked as well...

Ever notice at a new car dealer that the wheels often have a green sticker, or a paint mark, or a dimple... and it always lines up with the red circle on the tire... this is why...

Then the tires are match mounted to the wheels, stiff spot on tire at the low spot on the wheel... then the assembly is tested again, on a really expensive expensive machine. If it passes the oems requirements, it goes on the car.

Your tire store doesn't do this, because the low mark on the wheel is often lost , and not all replacement tires have the stiff spot marked... so there is a pretty good chance at least one of the replacement tires will vibrate... it will "balance..." but still have a vibration.

Unless the shop has a road force balance machine, and more and more do... this replicates to a lesser degree what the oem does for original equipment wheels and tires, allowing road force match mounting, avoiding most vibration issues, and sometimes identifying a defective tire.
 
Last edited:
This is on a 2004 Silverado with factory 16" aluminum wheels (quite common as they were a part of the factory towing package).

There's nothing really special here at all.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: mrsilv04
Last night, I very discretely marked the position of the stem on each of the tires, to see if they end up re-positioning any of the tires on the rim, with the Road Force balancing.

What you're talking about is match mounting in order to reduce the amount of balancing weights needed. It's different from road force balancing that can detect tire irregularities by applying 1200 lbs of pressure to simulate the weight of the vehicle on the tire as it rolls down the road. A tire can be perfectly balanced, yet cause vibration, and that's when you resort to road force balancing to figure out what's going on.


Well, they're calling it Road Force balancing. Their website mentions that they can Road Force balance tires.

I was under the impression that a Road Force machine can tell the operator how much to move a tire on the rim as well, to help improve things.
 
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