Transporting Keystone oil By Rail

[Yah-Tah-Hey]

I doubt if the purposed Keystone line will ever cross Nebraska. There is a lot of opposition to the pipeline and opponents have succeeded in getting the route changed so it doesn't cross the sandhills. Now they want is stopped, period. Yes, there are sandhills in Nebraska. Sand covered with very good grass ideal for raising cattle.The Ogallala aquifer underlies most of the state. This ecosystem is very fragile. We don't want it fouled. The new route is about twenty miles from our city. I realize that the Canadian and North Dakota crude has to go somewhere, and the best route would probably be west to a port on the Pacific. If it does go across Nebraska, we can live with it.

 

[Nyogtha]

Originally Posted By: m6pwr
The makeup of the chemical soup used as a diluent is claimed to be proprietary (just like fracking chemicals). However, one of the most likely solvents used is benzene, a powerful carcinogen.


High purity benzene is not likely to be used as diluent for dilbit - it takes a lot of energy & equipment to produce high purity benzene so the price is significantly higher than crude oil or say condensate or naphtha (sometimes termed natural gasoline) from natural gas processing.

See for example the reversal of the Cochin pipeline.

http://harvestland.com/news/cochin-pipeline-reversal/

 

[userfriendly]

I read the above link and I'm not sure what the article was telling us.

First, the direction of LPG flow, from north to south
as it is now, will be changed, and flow south to north instead.

The supply/demand vs supply link in a changing environment makes for interesting reading.

Where does that leave farmers in the USA that need LPG for crop drying?

The price should go down with the reduction of transportation costs.

The price of LPG should also go down in Canada due to the increased supply.

I've heard the term of piping natural gas "wet".

Does that term "wet" change the LPG landscape?

 

[tig1]

I started this thread 2 1/2 years ago and the tanker car trains are still coming through this area in large volume.

 

[edyvw]

As far as I know, Keystone will transport Canadian oil. So how does that helps fracking jobs in this country?

 

[userfriendly]

It doesn't help or hurt ("fr@ck") jobs (I had to dance around the censor feature),
if those jobs are producing light sweet crude and Keystone is piping
the heavier product that the Gulf refineries need.

With the "all North American solution" at least you know that any money
flowing into Canada for oil flowing out, will not be converted into arms
and ammunition and used against you.

My family is split equally on both sides of the 49th.

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: m6pwr
Anyone who lives near a pipeline or rail that transports dilbit should be concerned.

The crude that comes from the Canadian tar sands is just that: tar mixed in sand. To be transported to a refinery (e.g. through a pipeline like the proposed Keystone XL pipeline), it has to be dissolved into a form of crude known as dilbit (diluted bitumen - ie. diluted tar). The makeup of the chemical soup used as a diluent is claimed to be proprietary (just like fracking chemicals). However, one of the most likely solvents used is benzene, a powerful carcinogen. The stuff is chemically and physically corrosive. In other words, TransCanada wants to transport dilbit in pipelines that were never designed for such a product.

There are already U.S. pipelines in existence that transport Canadian dilbit , but none long enough (that's the XL part - the extra long pipeline) to take the dilbit to refineries in the Gulf that could then export it more cost-effectively to third world countries that don't mind using the fuel that would result: garbage diesel.

The environmental record of these U.S. dilbit-carrying pipelines is pretty sorry. There have been something like 12 spills already from these pipelines. One of the most serious (the so-called Enbridge spill) occurred about four years ago in Michigan, in the Kalamazoo River. It was found that the dilbit sank to the bottom of the river. But that's not the biggest problem. Apparently the diluent evaporates and drifts around the surrounding countryside. The Michigan Dept of Health did a study and found that 60% of the people living in the spill area developed respiratory and nervous system problems consistent with acute benzene poisoning.

So OP (Tig 1), when you hear the sirens going off or see "breaking news" indicating the rails cars have gone off the track, my advice would be to run. JUST RUN.

"Most Likely" is a scientific term?

 

[m6pwr]

The tree-huggers believe the diluent contains benzene.

Transcanada, to the extent that they reveal the composition of the diluent, says the diluent is typically (scientific term) a liquid made from condensed natural gas and a thinning agent used in many industrial processes.

Choose for yourself who you wish to believe.

Considering the Michigan Dept of Health findings re the Enbridge spill, I wouldn't care if the diluent is Cookies & Cream ice cream. I'd rather not be in the neighborhood of a spill.

 

[m6pwr]

Originally Posted By: m6pwr
The tree-huggers believe the diluent contains benzene.

Transcanada, to the extent that they reveal the composition of the diluent, says the diluent is typically (scientific term) a liquid made from condensed natural gas and a thinning agent used in many industrial processes.

Choose for yourself who you wish to believe.

Considering the Michigan Dept of Health findings re the Enbridge spill, I wouldn't care if the diluent is Cookies & Cream ice cream. I'd rather not be in the neighborhood of a spill.


The Michigan Dept of Health did detect benzene in the air around the spill for several days after the spill. But they did "not expect" (scientific term) the adverse health effects (breathing difficulties, nausea, dizziness) to have any long term effects.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Poor Keystone. The few thousand jobs are temporary and it'll generate only about 50 perm positions. On top of that the environmental concerns have been overblown.

 

[userfriendly]

Released to public regarding Lac Megantic runnaway and mainline derailment.
Transportation Safety Board Full Report.
www.tomhardingdefensefund.com

 

[userfriendly]

I just learned this from Railway Age magazine;
The light crude from Texas has the propane and butane
removed before it is shipped by rail to the refineries
that accept light crude.
ND Bakken light crude is not processed before shipping
and therefore is much more volatile.
The blame game begins.
The proposed USA DOT 117 rail cars to replace DOT 111 is
only part of the solution and will fix only part of the
problem of shipping crude by rail.

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
Poor Keystone. The few thousand jobs are temporary and it'll generate only about 50 perm positions. On top of that the environmental concerns have been overblown.
Sounds like the pipeline will have lower operating costs than the choo choo. Padding the payroll is something governments do very well, not private industry.

 

[userfriendly]

Who would have thought 25 years ago that we would have the
problem of too much North American crude?
The sticker on my GMC door says;
"Assembled with pride at Fort Wayne".
So, where does revenue from railway crude shipments end up?
Can you say that about crude from other parts of the world?

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: used_0il
Who would have thought 25 years ago that we would have the
problem of too much North American crude?
The sticker on my GMC door says;
"Assembled with pride at Fort Wayne".
So, where does revenue from railway crude shipments end up?
Can you say that about crude from other parts of the world?
In the case of Keystone it ends up in Warren Buffet's pocket. And HE is a good friend ond supporter of guess who?

 

[userfriendly]

Oh, he is obviously a big supporter of BNSF,
but CBR is not a large portion of their revenue.
Coal is still king by a huge margin without
the politics.
That was mentioned in the same issue of Railway Age.
Not an exact quote, but we can take it or leave it
was the answer.
And that came after Nebraska's court ruling on the pipeline.

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: used_0il
Oh, he is obviously a big supporter of BNSF,
but CBR is not a large portion of their revenue.
Coal is still king by a huge margin without
the politics.
That was mentioned in the same issue of Railway Age.
Not an exact quote, but we can take it or leave it
was the answer.
And that came after Nebraska's court ruling on the pipeline.
His holding company OWNS BNSF. And he gives a lot of dough to the beauty who VETOED th pipeline.

 

[userfriendly]

The argument I can not understand is that
once built, a pipeline creates very few
permanent jobs compared to rail and road
transportation.
Is efficiency a good thing in a
capitalistic society or not?

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: used_0il
The argument I can not understand is that
once built, a pipeline creates very few
permanent jobs compared to rail and road
transportation.
Is efficiency a good thing in a
capitalistic society or not?


Depends on where in the system the kickbacks are occurring.

An engineer that I worked with in the '90s had prepared a proposal to install an overland conveyor some 10 miles to save money over short haul trucking, over a private haul road.

He was convinced very early on, and from some unusual directions that he should pursue a different hobby other than economic efficiency.

 

[Garak]

I don't know how much of it has made Canadian national news, but you might have seen complaints about rail in Saskatchewan. Of course, there's no shortage of trucks on the roads, either.

Everyone wants goods, but they don't want trucks on the highways or rails crossing their roads or hauling dangerous goods.

I understand some opposition to pipelines, but every alternative has drawbacks. We had pipeline going through our land, and the companies are very easy to deal with and very cooperative when something is amiss. I'd prefer more pipelines hauling oil than rail doing so. On the other hand, grain and potash don't get shipped very well by pipeline, so the rails are essential in this province.

As an aside, people never know what they want. The big Sears depot here used to have everything shipped and received by rail, which went right to their building. People don't like trains in town. Stuff started to move by truck, but they don't like the big trucks in town, either. Sears scales back and lays a bunch of people off, and they don't like that, either.