ACEA A3/B4 vs ACEA C3

volodymyr

volodymyr

Joined
Sep 13, 2014
Messages
444
Location
Switzerland
Hello everyone,

I've been already asking if low saps oils are any good for the engines where they were not specifically demanded to be used by manufacture.

The general answer I got on this forum is that since this is low saps oil, it will do a worse engine wear protection than ACEA A3/B4.

However, if I compare on lubrizol https://www.lubrizol.com/apps/relperftool/pc.html these specifications (ACEA 2012) I can see that ACEA C3 has the same engine wear protection as ACEA A3/B4 (index 6) however it outperforms A3/B4 on fuel economy, oxidation thickening and catalyser protection.

http://pasteboard.co/2gGbz30U.png

I can also see that Castrol is not selling in Europe 5W-30 viscosity (which is quite popular) with ACEA A3/B4 only. Instead they sell Castrol EDGE FST 5W-30 ACEA C3 here.

Does it mean that Castrol is moving away from A3/B4 towards C3? Is there any criteria why A3/B4 may be better than C3?

I read somewhere that if you live in area where fuel has high sulphar quantities A3/B4 is better, I wonder if this is true or not.

The reason I am asking is because all my cars allow ACEA A3/B4 or ACEA C3, however I choose A3/B4 thinking it will do a better engine wear protection. Now, I can see that this is not necessary the truth ...

Another thing which worry me is that if I take Valvoline SynPower oils for example, I can see that:

- ACEA A3/B4 Valvoline oil is called "Valvoline SynPower 5W-30"
- ACEA C3 Valvoline oil is called "Valvoline SynPower Xtreme XL-III 5W–30"

It looks like they use the word "xtreme" with ACEA C3 which I guess means it has some better protection in extreme conditions?
smile.gif


Overall, I am trying to determine if I should switch to C3 oils in my next oil change ...
 
Last edited:
Volodymyr, majority of us on this board are in USA. At least, for now. And the fuel variable is quite different. We have more sulfur in our fuel, not at catastrophic levels at all, but enough to note. We also have ethanol nearly everywhere. So, the motor oil physical chemistry dynamics may be a bit different. Especially, if you run European ODIs. So, overall, what is being said about low SAP oils in regards to US market, may be not applicable to W European one.
 
Originally Posted By: volodymyr
I read somewhere that if you live in area where fuel has high sulphar quantities A3/B4 is better, I wonder if this is true or not.

It's generally true. Sulphur in gasoline tends to deplete the oil's additive pack quicker. That's why some Euro car makers in the US advise against the use of low SAPS oils in their gasoline engines here.

Quote:
The general answer I got on this forum is that since this is low saps oil, it will do a worse engine wear protection than ACEA A3/B4.

I did hear this opinion expressed here, and it might be true, but I have seen no actual proof, so take it for what it's worth.
 
Y_K,

Originally Posted By: Y_K


[...]

So, overall, what is being said about low SAP oils in regards to US market, may be not applicable to W European one.



Thanks for the reply. I will take a more close look on the forum to see which oils are used in US for european cars which require ACEA C3.

Thanks.
 
Quattro Pete,

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete

It's generally true. Sulphur in gasoline tends to deplete the oil's additive pack quicker. That's why some Euro car makers in the US advise against the use of low SAPS oils in their gasoline engines here.


Can you please send me the references to this information? I am just wondering what oils are used in US for european vehicles which explicitely ask for C3. I am guessing VW diesel cars often ask for ACEA C3 and are normally on 2 year OCI intervals (30k km).
 
Originally Posted By: volodymyr
Thanks for the reply. I will take a more close look on the forum to see which oils are used in US for european cars which require ACEA C3.
Thanks.

I guess, it was too subtle. Don't look at this forum, look at your local forums. If none are found, and I doubt Germans/French/Swedes/etc don't have a few decent ones, call and talk to engineers on both sides: mechanical and petroleum. I frequently call Mobil/Chevron/N and Ford/Toyota/Whatever engineers, and sometimes call more than a few times.. until the person I don't like goes for lunch
smile.gif

Few on this forum have experience and circumstances you have, they are different enough.
 
Originally Posted By: volodymyr
I am just wondering what oils are used in US for european vehicles which explicitely ask for C3. I am guessing VW diesel cars often ask for ACEA C3 and are normally on 2 year OCI intervals (30k km).


I am not aware of any Euro cars in the US that specifically ask for C3 oil. The VW diesels have their own specs, such as VW 504.00 / 507.00. But most of these 504.00/507.00 oils would meet ACEA C3 requirements as well. An example would be M1 ESP 5w-30.


In the US, diesel fuel is already ultra low sulfur, so it's not a problem. It's our gasoline that is not yet at ultra low sulfur levels.
 
OP, engine oil and fuel go together. If you're running quality, low sulfur fuel, you have nothing to worry about when running low SAPS.

I'm running Euro V (10 ppm sulfur) in two of my engines that I run low SAPS oil (Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30) in. In the two engines that run on Euro II (500 ppm sulfur), I run Mobil 1 0W-40.

Originally Posted By: SLO_Town
Hello:

CALIFORNIA gasoline is already low sulphur and in this respect is the same spec as Euro gasoline (Euro 5); 10ppm.

http://www.ogj.com/articles/2013/04/epa-proposes-sulfur-cut-in-move-toward-california-gasoline.html

Scott


Same goes for NY.
 
The engine testing requirements for ACEA C3 are almost identical to A3/B4. This includes identical requirements for the OM646LA (cam/tappet and cylinder wear) and TU3M (valvetrain scuffing). The only difference in engine testing demands is that in the VW TDi (piston cleanliness and ring sticking) test, there is a maximum limit on the end-of-test TBN for A3/B4 of 6 mgKOH/g, whereas for C3 the requirement is simply to report the result (all other parameters of this test are identical).

The main differences between the two are in the chemical limits (P, ash, TBN etc).
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete


Quote:
The general answer I got on this forum is that since this is low saps oil, it will do a worse engine wear protection than ACEA A3/B4.

I did hear this opinion expressed here, and it might be true, but I have seen no actual proof, so take it for what it's worth.

To expand on that, this is the only piece of info/anecdote on the subject that I'm aware of:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...ion#Post3351630

But again, no actual data to confirm or deny.
 
My $.02. BMW specs a low-Saps oil (LL04) for gas and diesel in w
western Europe. In the US only the diesels get LL04 because of the low levels of sulphur. The gassers use LL01 (A3/B4).

I read somewhere that there is a difference in wear between C3 and A3/B4 at around 200-250k miles. IMO it's not something to worry about.

Personally if my engine were direct injection I would use a C3 because of the add pack.
 
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl

I read somewhere that there is a difference in wear between C3 and A3/B4 at around 200-250k miles. IMO it's not something to worry about.


Which one would be better after those miles?
C3 better that A3/B4 or A3/b4 better than C3?
 
They have the same test limits, one (C3 has less additive), you can expect that A/B oils to do better in the long run...typically.
 
Originally Posted By: Pesca
Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl

I read somewhere that there is a difference in wear between C3 and A3/B4 at around 200-250k miles. IMO it's not something to worry about.


Which one would be better after those miles?
C3 better that A3/B4 or A3/b4 better than C3?


IIRC the A3/B4 revealed less measurable wear but both were within spec.
 
Complicating this is the fact that A3/B4 and C3 usually aren't found as stand alone specifications that I have found. They are usually combined with manufacturer's approvals.

Using the Lubrizol comparison tool, A3/B4 and C3 must meet the same minimum wear requirements, which show as a 6 on the chart. BMW LL-04 bumps that to 7, MB 229.51 bumps it up to 8, and VW 504/507/Porsche A30 bumps it again to 10.

It would appear that the difference in wear could depend on what other approvals are attached to a specific A3/B4 or C3 oil. In theory.

Ed
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
They have the same test limits, one (C3 has less additive), you can expect that A/B oils to do better in the long run...typically.


Yes, very good point. This is exactly what I've heard/read before. Both A3/B4 and C3 oils have to meet the same minimum test requirements for wear, but A3/B4 oils might far exceed the tests beyond what a C3 oil could achieve. Again, this is very general and may not always be the case.
 
Originally Posted By: volodymyr

I can also see that Castrol is not selling in Europe 5W-30 viscosity (which is quite popular) with ACEA A3/B4 only. Instead they sell Castrol EDGE FST 5W-30 ACEA C3 here.

Does it mean that Castrol is moving away from A3/B4 towards C3? Is there any criteria why A3/B4 may be better than C3?




I think you will find that in Europe, due to the immense popularity of diesel powered passenger vehicles, C3 oils will obviously be some of the most popular offerings on store shelves. This is because modern diesel powered vehicles absolutely require C3 oils in order to protect their emissions equipment such as particulate filters and catalysts. That is not to say that C3 oils protect the engine better, but they enable emissions equipment to operate correctly in the long run.

As for gasoline engines, as long as the gasoline is ultra low sulphur, then you won't have an issue using C3 oils, although it is not necessarily required or any better than A3/B4 oils in those applications (with the exception of maybe direct injected gasoline engines due to valve deposit formation).

So I believe C3 oils are very popular in Europe simply because they can be used in mostly all vehicles, whereas A3/B4 oils are limited to gasoline powered vehicles only (or older diesels without any DPF, EGR, or catalysts).
 
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