new mustang GT350 to get flat plane crank

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: Olas
Tremec are ok at designing and building gearboxes, certainly better at it than Ford are, but;

Why is nobody talking about Quaife?


Because very few want, or would be willing to pay for, an $80K, base V-8, Mustang.

Also, almost none of the U.S. public would put up with the straight cut gears/dog ring SCREAM (and CRUNCHING/BANGING when engaging first gear) of their sequentials, or even their H pattern boxes (I, for one, would IF it were reasonalble, but I am the exception here in the states).

 

[ls1mike]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: Olas
Tremec are ok at designing and building gearboxes, certainly better at it than Ford are, but;

Why is nobody talking about Quaife?


Because very few want, or would be willing to pay for, an $80K, base V-8, Mustang.

Also, almost none of the U.S. public would put up with the straight cut gears/dog ring SCREAM (and CRUNCHING/BANGING when engaging first gear) of their sequentials, or even their H pattern boxes (I, for one, would IF it were reasonalble, but I am the exception here in the states).

I would too! Car is a machine you should be able to hear it. I think my time spent on Submarines had made me numb to noise. They are quiet on the outside, and noisy on the inside.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: Doktor_Bert
440 Magnum:

I am a former Hemi 'E' and 'B' Body owner, so I do like the older MoPars...

But we have had more than one Challenger come through and it looks just like a MBZ underneath. The suspension especially.




No argument on that, it was known before the LX/LC chassis appeared that it would have MB-derivative suspension. But look at the legs that decision has given the chassis. With the usual incremental improvements its had, it remains segment-leading after all these years. Seriously, would you even begin to compare a Ford Taurus to the chassis dynamics of a Charger? The Chevy SS is probably as close as anyone comes (and its a Holden). When the Camaro finally switches to the Cadillac ATS platform, someone will *finally* put some pressure on it to modernize, at least as it appears under the Challenger. The rest of the car, though, is pretty "American," at least as much as anything can be these days. Brembo brakes, Chrysler (North America exclusively) engines, Tremec manual transmission, and now a ZF automatic.

 

[Merkava_4]

Originally Posted By: CT8
Better high Rpm durablity and the loss of the American V8 pulse. I like the twisted crank sound.


Wait a minute .... are you saying the flat crank will cause the V8 to have that winey sound like a Ferrari? I sure hope not.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: CT8
Better high Rpm durablity and the loss of the American V8 pulse. I like the twisted crank sound.


Wait a minute .... are you saying the flat crank will cause the V8 to have that winey sound like a Ferrari? I sure hope not.


Sorta does. Listen to the video- they managed to get it between the flat Ferrari sound and the more "rumbly" American v8 sound.

FWIW- if you ever hear a Ford GT (a real vintage one), it sounds a lot like the new Mustang GT350 because it uses criss-cross exhaust pipes that take one cylinder of each bank and send it across to join the three on the other bank, which make the pulses in the collectors alternate banks like a flat-plane crank. That was to achieve the better high-RPM scavenging of a flat-plane crank while still using a twisted-crank 427.

 

[hattaresguy]

I was going to say it sounds like the old Ford's at the race track in full race trim.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: CT8
Better high Rpm durablity and the loss of the American V8 pulse. I like the twisted crank sound.


Wait a minute .... are you saying the flat crank will cause the V8 to have that winey sound like a Ferrari? I sure hope not.


IIRC Ferrari's have oversquare bores.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: CT8
Better high Rpm durablity and the loss of the American V8 pulse. I like the twisted crank sound.


Wait a minute .... are you saying the flat crank will cause the V8 to have that winey sound like a Ferrari? I sure hope not.


IIRC Ferrari's have oversquare bores.


So did the older 302 (4"/3") Ford.

 

[ls1mike]

Either way, I like how it sounds!

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: ls1mike
Either way, I like how it sounds!


Me too. I loved the burble of the old 5.0 engines but times change.
And if progress means 500hp or so but sounds a bit different then progress away.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
FWIW- if you ever hear a Ford GT (a real vintage one), it sounds a lot like the new Mustang GT350 because it uses criss-cross exhaust pipes that take one cylinder of each bank and send it across to join the three on the other bank, which make the pulses in the collectors alternate banks like a flat-plane crank. That was to achieve the better high-RPM scavenging of a flat-plane crank while still using a twisted-crank 427.


So that why their headers/exhaust had that convoluted, "bundle of snakes" look to it that the old '67 Ferrari V-12, 312s had??

 

[bdcardinal]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
FWIW- if you ever hear a Ford GT (a real vintage one), it sounds a lot like the new Mustang GT350 because it uses criss-cross exhaust pipes that take one cylinder of each bank and send it across to join the three on the other bank, which make the pulses in the collectors alternate banks like a flat-plane crank. That was to achieve the better high-RPM scavenging of a flat-plane crank while still using a twisted-crank 427.


So that why their headers/exhaust had that convoluted, "bundle of snakes" look to it that the old '67 Ferrari V-12, 312s had??

Yup, and they sound amazing. Ford Racing sold a Borla made exhaust for the 05-06 GT that was a set of rear exit headers. Basically just straight headers, and that is possibly the only exhaust that sounds as amazing as a Mk IV GT40.

 

[hattaresguy]

MMMMM sexy.

Their is an old 70's vintage Boss 302 at Limerock classic car races that rev's to the sky and sounds like this. What do they spin up to in full race trim? 7k-8k?

The BRM H16 is also a very interesting sounding motor.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
FWIW- if you ever hear a Ford GT (a real vintage one), it sounds a lot like the new Mustang GT350 because it uses criss-cross exhaust pipes that take one cylinder of each bank and send it across to join the three on the other bank, which make the pulses in the collectors alternate banks like a flat-plane crank. That was to achieve the better high-RPM scavenging of a flat-plane crank while still using a twisted-crank 427.


So that why their headers/exhaust had that convoluted, "bundle of snakes" look to it that the old '67 Ferrari V-12, 312s had??

On the Ferrari, the "bundle of snakes" is just to get equal length tubes before the collectors. But on the GT40, the two tubes that trade sides definitely add to the chaos of tubing.

 

[d00df00d]

You know, I've wondered about that: why didn't that GT40 just use a flat-plane crank? Those crazy headers must have added a lot of mass, not to mention that a cross-plane crank is heavier itself. Was it because of homologation requirements or something?

 

[bdcardinal]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
You know, I've wondered about that: why didn't that GT40 just use a flat-plane crank? Those crazy headers must have added a lot of mass, not to mention that a cross-plane crank is heavier itself. Was it because of homologation requirements or something?


I think simplicity more than anything. They already had 4.7L (289ci) Windsor V8s readily available from the Falcon/Mustang assembly line and later the 7.0L (427ci) FE V8s from the Galaxie line. They did have the engine on simulators that ran multiple 24 hour race cycles to improve reliability. Also remember this was the 60s, the rapid prototyping and production did not exist in the capacity we have now.

 

[Jarlaxle]

I recall the Le Mans cars ran what were basically slightly-detuned (lower octane fuel and durability to run 24+ hours at WOT) NASCAR 427's.

 

[bdcardinal]

Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
I recall the Le Mans cars ran what were basically slightly-detuned (lower octane fuel and durability to run 24+ hours at WOT) NASCAR 427's.


Yup. Weird things happen when it comes to Le Mans engines. There was a Jaguar XJR9 fitted with a DOHC V12, but the drivers preferred the SOHC V12 because the center of gravity was lower.

 

[Drew2000]

Ford is producing the FPC engine for the GT350R, which like it's predecessor 302R, will be a off-road-only, no-VIN factory-ready race car. Makes sense to increase the engine production to include the street GT350. Makes it different from the regular Mustang or Boss (if they produce one).

Boss 302R

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
You know, I've wondered about that: why didn't that GT40 just use a flat-plane crank? Those crazy headers must have added a lot of mass, not to mention that a cross-plane crank is heavier itself. Was it because of homologation requirements or something?


I think the other answers have hit it on the head. They had engines already proven and tested at higher output than the GT40 needed, so it was a matter of fitting the car around an existing design. If you look at the exhaust on a GT40, those two crossing tubes really don't add that much complication. It woudld have been a different story in a front-engine/rear-drive layout, but with the GT40's engine placement the header plumbing all ran up and out, so it didn't have to wrap around... well, ANYTHING really. Getting a flat-plane v8 to be reliable isn't trivial. The vibrations do get destructive at high output, so it would have taken a significant development effort in an era when it was still done with slide-rules followed by fabrication and test-to-destruction.