VW Oil Conversation - why 40 weight?

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Originally Posted By: wemay
How is MB 229.5 relevant in a vehicle that req's VW cert? Not arguing that GC or M1 are poor oils, not at all, but by having the viewpoint that Edge 5w40 shouldnt be used because it lacks another OEM's spec is indirectly stating that the specs it does meet are not good enough even if intended for the specific application.

All assuming the VW Cert is met by the 5w40.




Nice catch. I didn't clue in that the referred to certification was a Mercedes spec,not vw.
That's what I get for skimming.

K. So enough conjecture here. Does castrol 5w-40 meet the corresponding vw spec or not.
If it does then obviously it's a viable option for use,however I am referring to actual certification,not the term "suitable for" or "meets or exceeds."
When I was looking at euro spec oils last year most were 0w-40 grades,the actual certified ones anyway.
The only 5w-40 euro oil that I came across that was certified(iirc) was PU.
 
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: wemay
How is MB 229.5 relevant in a vehicle that req's VW cert? Not arguing that GC or M1 are poor oils, not at all, but by having the viewpoint that Edge 5w40 shouldnt be used because it lacks another OEM's spec is indirectly stating that the specs it does meet are not good enough even if intended for the specific application.

All assuming the VW Cert is met by the 5w40.




Nice catch. I didn't clue in that the referred to certification was a Mercedes spec,not vw.
That's what I get for skimming.

K. So enough conjecture here. Does castrol 5w-40 meet the corresponding vw spec or not.
If it does then obviously it's a viable option for use,however I am referring to actual certification,not the term "suitable for" or "meets or exceeds."
When I was looking at euro spec oils last year most were 0w-40 grades,the actual certified ones anyway.
The only 5w-40 euro oil that I came across that was certified(iirc) was PU.


QP and edyvw have advised that yes, the Castrol 5w40 does meet VW cert but, the MB cert is a more stringent and thus a more desirable spec to look for alongside the VW certification.
 
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: aa1986
In Western Europe, Mercedes allows the use of 229.3 oils in the same engines it requires 229.5 oils in the rest of the world.

That is very small number of engines and older ones. I have friends in Europe that are driving MB's and all are MB 229.5 or MB 229.51.


No it's roughly half the engines. And the half that requires 229.5 in Western Europe includes all the AMG engines.

http://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/d/d/en/Spec_223_2.pdf
 
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: kozanoglu
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: SandCastle
Why do you suppose VW persists with the 40 weight oil specification (VW 502 00), when many competitors have been specifying 20 weight oils for many years with good engine longevity? Do passenger cars like the Passat and Jetta really need thick oil? For one thing, SAE 40 exacts a fuel efficiency penalty compared to SAE 20. VW must have spent a fortune redesigning their new gen-3 1.8T engine for improved efficiency (their stated goal), yet they seemingly shoot themselves in the foot by going with 40 weight. One would think the new engine would have been redesigned from the outset to work with 20 weight or at most 30 weight oil? My guess is that VW engines run hot (which is why they often come with oil coolers). So maybe 40 weight in a hot engine has the same viscosity as a cooler running Honda Civic engine with 20 weight oil? Just speculation, though. Or does VW assume we drive wide open on the Autobahn every day? Any thoughts on this?

First, engine is made for European use. When they design engine they are not thinking about us here first, then Germans.
So yes, average German drives on Autobahn every day to get to work. That does not mean it drives every day 250km/h, but having a lot of experience in Germany, and other European countries, driving dynamic is much different.
Second, it is philosophy in building engines.


Actually some of these engines were not designed for Europe -only. Especially bigger varieties common in the US.

Actually they are.
For example:
EU market:
VW CC 3.6 4Motion
300hp
DSG Transmission
High-Performance tires (usually Bridgestone Potenza RE 050

US Market:
280hp
Aisin Transmission
All Season tires, usually Continental Whatever

Actually from what I have seen so far, all engines are downgraded for the U.S. market, and some never find their way here (M3 CSL, Audi RS 6 etc).



Octane is much lower in the US from memory so they probably have to retard/detune the engine to compensate.
 
Originally Posted By: riggaz
Octane is much lower in the US from memory so they probably have to retard/detune the engine to compensate.

Octane is not lower in the US. It is just measured differently (RON vs. AKI). 95 RON is about 90 AKI. Similarly, 98 RON is about 93 AKI, which is what premium fuel is in the US and it is recommended for most German engines in the US.

However, the US emissions requirements are different, which leads car manufacturers to run different ECU air-fuel maps. This results in richer mixture and in turn more potential for fuel dilution which is tough on oil.
 
For what it's worth...


2295_vs_50200.png
2295_vs_2293.png
 
Well if you're playing that game, 504 00/507 00 beats them all (yes, even though it is a lower SAPS product), so why not go for that one?
 
Originally Posted By: weasley
Well if you're playing that game, 504 00/507 00 beats them all (yes, even though it is a lower SAPS product), so why not go for that one?

Because low SAPS oils have a tough time making it through the full OCI here in the states where our gasoline is not yet ultra low sulfur and has ethanol in it.

However, if you're willing to run shorter OCI, then like I mentioned earlier, low SAPS and low Noack oil might be the way to go for DI.
 
Originally Posted By: weasley
Well if you're playing that game, 504 00/507 00 beats them all (yes, even though it is a lower SAPS product), so why not go for that one?

Like QP said problem with VW504.00/507.00 is sulfur rich gas in the U.S. I used for some time in my CC M1 5W30 ESP, which I think is best available VW504.00/507.00 oil on the market, considering numbers.
However, after two UOA I am sure TBN cannot hold for more then 5K. Also, I noticed that my CC and my wife's Tiguan consume around half liter of oil after some 3-4K, while it does not consume any of M1 0W40 or other Full-SAPS I used in (GC, PU).
 
QP, you read my mind, I was looking for the spider graph as well.
thumbsup2.gif


If I couldn't find a MB spec'd oil ( which is easily found here), I would then go with the VW low SAPS spec as well, before going with the Castrol 5w40. Assuming the same availability.

During the early to late 90's I was a big VDubber, '94 Mk3 VR6 GTI's, '92 Mk2 2.0 16v GLi and a G60 Corrado. I don't even remember that we ever used a Euro spec oil, everything was Royal Purple and GTX.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: wemay
During the early to late 90's I was a big VDubber, '94 Mk3 VR6 GTI's, '92 Mk2 2.0 16v GLi and a G60 Corrado. I don't even remember that we ever used a Euro spec oil,

The first VW specs were only designed in 1997, I think. First ACEA specs came to being around the same time as well. But it took years before we've heard of them here in the US. When I bought my A4 in 2001, Audi/VW dealers were still using plain old API SJ/SL mineral oil as part of the free maintenance. I used to show up to these free maintenance appointments with my own bottles of M1. Dealer thought I was crazy.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: wemay
During the early to late 90's I was a big VDubber, '94 Mk3 VR6 GTI's, '92 Mk2 2.0 16v GLi and a G60 Corrado. I don't even remember that we ever used a Euro spec oil,

The first VW specs were only designed in 1997, I think. First ACEA specs came to being around the same time as well. But it took years before we've heard of them here in the US. When I bought my A4 in 2001, Audi/VW dealers were still using plain old API SJ/SL mineral oil as part of the free maintenance. I used to show up to these free maintenance appointments with my own bottles of M1. Dealer thought I was crazy.



smile.gif
Not so, good ol days.
 
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: kozanoglu
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: SandCastle
Why do you suppose VW persists with the 40 weight oil specification (VW 502 00), when many competitors have been specifying 20 weight oils for many years with good engine longevity? Do passenger cars like the Passat and Jetta really need thick oil? For one thing, SAE 40 exacts a fuel efficiency penalty compared to SAE 20. VW must have spent a fortune redesigning their new gen-3 1.8T engine for improved efficiency (their stated goal), yet they seemingly shoot themselves in the foot by going with 40 weight. One would think the new engine would have been redesigned from the outset to work with 20 weight or at most 30 weight oil? My guess is that VW engines run hot (which is why they often come with oil coolers). So maybe 40 weight in a hot engine has the same viscosity as a cooler running Honda Civic engine with 20 weight oil? Just speculation, though. Or does VW assume we drive wide open on the Autobahn every day? Any thoughts on this?

First, engine is made for European use. When they design engine they are not thinking about us here first, then Germans.
So yes, average German drives on Autobahn every day to get to work. That does not mean it drives every day 250km/h, but having a lot of experience in Germany, and other European countries, driving dynamic is much different.
Second, it is philosophy in building engines.


Actually some of these engines were not designed for Europe -only. Especially bigger varieties common in the US.

Actually they are.
For example:
EU market:
VW CC 3.6 4Motion
300hp
DSG Transmission
High-Performance tires (usually Bridgestone Potenza RE 050

US Market:
280hp
Aisin Transmission
All Season tires, usually Continental Whatever

Actually from what I have seen so far, all engines are downgraded for the U.S. market, and some never find their way here (M3 CSL, Audi RS 6 etc).



Actually what I said was just that. Right? What we have here are not what they have there.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: weasley
Well if you're playing that game, 504 00/507 00 beats them all (yes, even though it is a lower SAPS product), so why not go for that one?

Because low SAPS oils have a tough time making it through the full OCI here in the states where our gasoline is not yet ultra low sulfur and has ethanol in it.

However, if you're willing to run shorter OCI, then like I mentioned earlier, low SAPS and low Noack oil might be the way to go for DI.



haven't you been ultra low sulphur since 2007?
 
Our diesel has been ULS for some time. Our gasoline has had reduced sulfur for some time as well, but it is not ultra low sulfur yet, apart from maybe California.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: wemay
but by having the viewpoint that Edge 5w40 shouldnt be used

For the record, I did not say that it shouldn't be used. I said that it's not the best thing, because as edyvw pointed out, there are better oils out there that meet more stringent specs. And as you know, these forced induction DI engines can be tough on oil, especially when asked to perform for 10K miles, which is the recommended OCI. So it's only natural that one would want the best oil, IMO.

I guess if you want the best, you've gotta do it yourself.



Unfortunately my Audi dealer uses the Edge 5w40. It consumes significantly more than Mobil 0w40 or PU 5w40 in my application. In my case, if you want the best I definitely have to do it myself. Which kind of sucks on the Audi because the filter location always causes spills for me :| (1.8T).
 
There's probably a reason why VAG dealers use it. It must be the cheapest stuff out there that still meets the spec.
smile.gif


However, the few long UOAs I've seen on it didn't look out of ordinary, for whatever it's worth. As usual, we are possibly overthinking things here on BITOG.
 
The UOA I did with Castrol 5w40 after 10k miles was fine for me as well. It was a difficult UOA though since I have to add so much makeup oil when I use it.

I am sure it is providing adequate protection for the engine, but the consumption for whatever reason is just absurd for me. The fact that other oils change that leads me to believe it is the oil and not the car.
 
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