VW Oil Conversation - why 40 weight?

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Originally Posted By: Michael_P
I know two people who have used Xw20 oils long term in VW's both with bad results. Namely timing chain sprockets and cam lobes failing. I would think with as large as VW is, they intentionally design their cars to run on specific oils which happen to be thicker. They do appear to be in the stone age of lubrication.
The one vehicle was a Jetta I4 and the other was a GTI VR6. They both took their cars to shops / oil change places that were unaware of 502 505 specs.

The damage that occurred is similar to this link I found. Click here
I would think that if mechanics have any self-respect they would now what kind of oil goes in.
 
just look at the HTHS #'s for a 20 vs 40 oil, also noacks are generally higher which is not good. the same ford engines in europe spec 5-30 vs the usa at 5-20. i would + do not use any 5-20 oils as the 1/4 mpg more surely less important than a long lasting engine. tow heavy weights in your $50,000 pickup + see what happens miles down the road. one poster using spec 5-20 is all over ford as he's using a qt in 800 miles, ford said thats ok, NOT on my $$$$
 
Hi, I am new to the forum and read this discussion on VW oils with interest. I just bought a 2012 GTI. I get one more free oil change, and then I will be doing them. I use M1 in my other cars, as I have read it is good oil, and I can easily get it cheaply from Costco. Based on what I have read here, it may be a good choice for my GTI, in the 0-40 weight, or even the 5-30. From what I have read on other forums, the DI engines have a carbon build up problem on the intake valves, that is a function of blow-by, so perhaps certain oil chemistry could lessen this problem. Any suggestions on a good choice when considering this known problem?

Thanks in advance for any help
 
Originally Posted By: AndySantoro
From what I have read on other forums, the DI engines have a carbon build up problem on the intake valves, that is a function of blow-by, so perhaps certain oil chemistry could lessen this problem. Any suggestions on a good choice when considering this known problem?

Thanks in advance for any help

Welcome to BITOG.

You might want to start by reading this thread started by our friend Jeffs2006EvoIX, or several other of his threads for that matter...

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...it?#Post3408513

I think I'd use something with low SAPS and low Noack, and change it more often. Still haven't decided what to do about wife's Q5 that also has a DI engine. On one hand, I'd rather have the dealer just do the servicing on it while it's under warranty. On the other hand, I'm not sure that the oil they use (Castrol 5w-40) at 10K intervals is the best thing for it long term...
 
That is definitely something I wonder for so long now.

So there is a fact with a VW car in Brazil back in '08 that I find very interesting and I have researched a lot but never found what really happened.

Well here it goes. A "new" model called Gol G5 1.0 VHT flex fuel (gasoline or ethanol) one of the most sold car in BR. Requires 5w40 VW502.00 the same for its predecessor. At first VW sets a 15.000km OCI and 7.500 for severe service. Owners starts to notice unusual noises from the motor. The dealer opens the engine: rods and bearings burned. VW replace the entire engine with no costs for the owner.

VW says 1 in a 1000 happened. So they set 10.000km OCI and 5.000 severe, 2+ years warrant and they launch a warning to their dealers so the owners can change their oil in the next inspection with no cost (I myself had that car). Dealer says "well the company will afford the oil change this time" but they didn't said why to me in that occasion
confused.gif


Anyway VW claims that the origins of the problem was "lubrication fail due to low levels of oil caused by the use ethanol fuel. VW reminds that the oil supply company gives the oil that we ask for"

Some people claims that they eventually filled the first oil with a 0w30 so ethanol by products caused the oil to lose its viscosity and combined with 750RPM idle (+ FE) lead to very low oil pressure at idle so overheating whatever.
There are other rumors for exemple bad engine assembly, weak parts and so on.

VW never told exactly why some engines died.
I wish I could find someone who explains why that happened. I think I never will.
You can google it there are tons of complaints from the owners who had their engines replaced.

Any comments?

Sorry for my english.

Oh..as for my car I have just sold it with 60.000km on the clock. No issues but a noise of metal-to-metal at cold start
blush.gif
 
Originally Posted By: AndySantoro
Hi, I am new to the forum and read this discussion on VW oils with interest. I just bought a 2012 GTI. I get one more free oil change, and then I will be doing them. I use M1 in my other cars, as I have read it is good oil, and I can easily get it cheaply from Costco. Based on what I have read here, it may be a good choice for my GTI, in the 0-40 weight, or even the 5-30. From what I have read on other forums, the DI engines have a carbon build up problem on the intake valves, that is a function of blow-by, so perhaps certain oil chemistry could lessen this problem. Any suggestions on a good choice when considering this known problem?

Thanks in advance for any help


I would not use the 5w30 in your GTI. The 0w40 Mobil 1 is a different beast, and meets the VW spec required. As far as I know, Costco does not carry the 0w40 weight. I sent a suggestion in via their feedback page to carry the oil, we'll see.

As for the DI aspect, Euro speced oil is probably the best you can do. Maybe some of the newer GF-5 Euro oils like Pennzoil 5w40 Euro. My two choices.
 
Originally Posted By: Trix
Originally Posted By: AndySantoro
Hi, I am new to the forum and read this discussion on VW oils with interest. I just bought a 2012 GTI. I get one more free oil change, and then I will be doing them. I use M1 in my other cars, as I have read it is good oil, and I can easily get it cheaply from Costco. Based on what I have read here, it may be a good choice for my GTI, in the 0-40 weight, or even the 5-30. From what I have read on other forums, the DI engines have a carbon build up problem on the intake valves, that is a function of blow-by, so perhaps certain oil chemistry could lessen this problem. Any suggestions on a good choice when considering this known problem?

Thanks in advance for any help


I would not use the 5w30 in your GTI. The 0w40 Mobil 1 is a different beast, and meets the VW spec required. As far as I know, Costco does not carry the 0w40 weight. I sent a suggestion in via their feedback page to carry the oil, we'll see.

As for the DI aspect, Euro speced oil is probably the best you can do. Maybe some of the newer GF-5 Euro oils like Pennzoil 5w40 Euro. My two choices.

+1
Be careful! Costco carries ONLY Mobil1 10W30 and 5W30 WHICH ARE NOT SUITABLE FOR EURO ENGINES (including GTI).
Go to Wal Mart get M1 0W40 or Castrol 0W40!
On other hand, be free to use Costco premium gas!
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
On the other hand, I'm not sure that the oil they use (Castrol 5w-40) at 10K intervals is the best thing for it long term...


Hi QP, why the concern over EDGE 5w40?
 
Originally Posted By: wemay
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
On the other hand, I'm not sure that the oil they use (Castrol 5w-40) at 10K intervals is the best thing for it long term...


Hi QP, why the concern over EDGE 5w40?




I'm wondering the same thing.
When it comes to euro vehicles I don't even try thinking for myself and "experiment" with unapproved products.
Euro vehicles have tough oil standards and the certified products are certified for a reason,so using a certified product is the ONLY responsible course of action in my opinion.
Sure I'll try out 20 grades in Windsor pushrod 5.0 engines just for giggles. However I can find an old 5.0 for 300 bucks,and install it in a day with help.
I'm not sure I can find a VW engine that easy,and that cheap.
M1 0w-40 and castrol 0w-40 are approved euro spec oils. They are easy to find and are certified for use so to me it's a no brainer.
Is castrol 5w-40 not certified for a euro vehicle or not certified for vw?
If it's not certified then I would keep shopping,but if it is what exactly is the problem exactly?
 
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: wemay
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
On the other hand, I'm not sure that the oil they use (Castrol 5w-40) at 10K intervals is the best thing for it long term...


Hi QP, why the concern over EDGE 5w40?




I'm wondering the same thing.
When it comes to euro vehicles I don't even try thinking for myself and "experiment" with unapproved products.
Euro vehicles have tough oil standards and the certified products are certified for a reason,so using a certified product is the ONLY responsible course of action in my opinion.
Sure I'll try out 20 grades in Windsor pushrod 5.0 engines just for giggles. However I can find an old 5.0 for 300 bucks,and install it in a day with help.
I'm not sure I can find a VW engine that easy,and that cheap.
M1 0w-40 and castrol 0w-40 are approved euro spec oils. They are easy to find and are certified for use so to me it's a no brainer.
Is castrol 5w-40 not certified for a euro vehicle or not certified for vw?
If it's not certified then I would keep shopping,but if it is what exactly is the problem exactly?

Bcs Castrol 5W40 DOES NOT meet MB 229.5 specification, meaning, it leaves more deposits then M1 0W40, Castrol 0W40, Pentosin 5W40, PU 5W40 or any other that has MB 229.5 spec.
I used it in Passat 1.8T for 4-5 changes. Every time after 4K I could hear hidro lifters knocking. Never heard that with GC 0W30 or M1 0W40 or PU 5W40.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: wemay
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
On the other hand, I'm not sure that the oil they use (Castrol 5w-40) at 10K intervals is the best thing for it long term...


Hi QP, why the concern over EDGE 5w40?




I'm wondering the same thing.
When it comes to euro vehicles I don't even try thinking for myself and "experiment" with unapproved products.
Euro vehicles have tough oil standards and the certified products are certified for a reason,so using a certified product is the ONLY responsible course of action in my opinion.
Sure I'll try out 20 grades in Windsor pushrod 5.0 engines just for giggles. However I can find an old 5.0 for 300 bucks,and install it in a day with help.
I'm not sure I can find a VW engine that easy,and that cheap.
M1 0w-40 and castrol 0w-40 are approved euro spec oils. They are easy to find and are certified for use so to me it's a no brainer.
Is castrol 5w-40 not certified for a euro vehicle or not certified for vw?
If it's not certified then I would keep shopping,but if it is what exactly is the problem exactly?

Bcs Castrol 5W40 DOES NOT meet MB 229.5 specification, meaning, it leaves more deposits then M1 0W40, Castrol 0W40, Pentosin 5W40, PU 5W40 or any other that has MB 229.5 spec.
I used it in Passat 1.8T for 4-5 changes. Every time after 4K I could hear hidro lifters knocking. Never heard that with GC 0W30 or M1 0W40 or PU 5W40.



Well then that's the answer right there. It doesn't meet the spec. In a European vehicle using a non spec lubricant can be compared to playing Russian roulette.
Just my opinion.

M1 0w-40.
That is all.
 
How is MB 229.5 relevant in a vehicle that req's VW cert? Not arguing that GC or M1 are poor oils, not at all, but by having the viewpoint that Edge 5w40 shouldnt be used because it lacks another OEM's spec is indirectly stating that the specs it does meet are not good enough even if intended for the specific application.

All assuming the VW Cert is met by the 5w40.
 
Originally Posted By: wemay
but by having the viewpoint that Edge 5w40 shouldnt be used

For the record, I did not say that it shouldn't be used. I said that it's not the best thing, because as edyvw pointed out, there are better oils out there that meet more stringent specs. And as you know, these forced induction DI engines can be tough on oil, especially when asked to perform for 10K miles, which is the recommended OCI. So it's only natural that one would want the best oil, IMO.

I guess if you want the best, you've gotta do it yourself.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: wemay
but by having the viewpoint that Edge 5w40 shouldnt be used

For the record, I did not say that it shouldn't be used. I said that it's not the best thing, because as edyvw pointed out, there are better oils out there that meet more stringent specs. And as you know, these forced induction DI engines can be tough on oil, especially when asked to perform for 10K miles, which is the recommended OCI. So it's only natural that one would want the best oil, IMO.

I guess if you want the best, you've gotta do it yourself.


I didn't mean 'shouldn't' so I presented that incorrectly. Your explanation answered my question. I guess my misunderstanding was that the VW Spec was as stringent as the MB one.

Thanks,

Warren
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: SandCastle
Why do you suppose VW persists with the 40 weight oil specification (VW 502 00), when many competitors have been specifying 20 weight oils for many years with good engine longevity? Do passenger cars like the Passat and Jetta really need thick oil? For one thing, SAE 40 exacts a fuel efficiency penalty compared to SAE 20. VW must have spent a fortune redesigning their new gen-3 1.8T engine for improved efficiency (their stated goal), yet they seemingly shoot themselves in the foot by going with 40 weight. One would think the new engine would have been redesigned from the outset to work with 20 weight or at most 30 weight oil? My guess is that VW engines run hot (which is why they often come with oil coolers). So maybe 40 weight in a hot engine has the same viscosity as a cooler running Honda Civic engine with 20 weight oil? Just speculation, though. Or does VW assume we drive wide open on the Autobahn every day? Any thoughts on this?

First, engine is made for European use. When they design engine they are not thinking about us here first, then Germans.
So yes, average German drives on Autobahn every day to get to work. That does not mean it drives every day 250km/h, but having a lot of experience in Germany, and other European countries, driving dynamic is much different.
Second, it is philosophy in building engines.


Actually some of these engines were not designed for Europe -only. Especially bigger varieties common in the US.
 
Originally Posted By: kozanoglu
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: SandCastle
Why do you suppose VW persists with the 40 weight oil specification (VW 502 00), when many competitors have been specifying 20 weight oils for many years with good engine longevity? Do passenger cars like the Passat and Jetta really need thick oil? For one thing, SAE 40 exacts a fuel efficiency penalty compared to SAE 20. VW must have spent a fortune redesigning their new gen-3 1.8T engine for improved efficiency (their stated goal), yet they seemingly shoot themselves in the foot by going with 40 weight. One would think the new engine would have been redesigned from the outset to work with 20 weight or at most 30 weight oil? My guess is that VW engines run hot (which is why they often come with oil coolers). So maybe 40 weight in a hot engine has the same viscosity as a cooler running Honda Civic engine with 20 weight oil? Just speculation, though. Or does VW assume we drive wide open on the Autobahn every day? Any thoughts on this?

First, engine is made for European use. When they design engine they are not thinking about us here first, then Germans.
So yes, average German drives on Autobahn every day to get to work. That does not mean it drives every day 250km/h, but having a lot of experience in Germany, and other European countries, driving dynamic is much different.
Second, it is philosophy in building engines.


Actually some of these engines were not designed for Europe -only. Especially bigger varieties common in the US.

Actually they are.
For example:
EU market:
VW CC 3.6 4Motion
300hp
DSG Transmission
High-Performance tires (usually Bridgestone Potenza RE 050

US Market:
280hp
Aisin Transmission
All Season tires, usually Continental Whatever

Actually from what I have seen so far, all engines are downgraded for the U.S. market, and some never find their way here (M3 CSL, Audi RS 6 etc).
 
Originally Posted By: wemay
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: wemay
but by having the viewpoint that Edge 5w40 shouldnt be used

For the record, I did not say that it shouldn't be used. I said that it's not the best thing, because as edyvw pointed out, there are better oils out there that meet more stringent specs. And as you know, these forced induction DI engines can be tough on oil, especially when asked to perform for 10K miles, which is the recommended OCI. So it's only natural that one would want the best oil, IMO.

I guess if you want the best, you've gotta do it yourself.


I didn't mean 'shouldn't' so I presented that incorrectly. Your explanation answered my question. I guess my misunderstanding was that the VW Spec was as stringent as the MB one.

Thanks,

Warren

Yeah I suppose to be more detailed.
MB 229.5 is kind of reference for gasoline engines. If it meets your spec + MB 229.5 then that is way to go.
I drive CC with same engine as in GTI, and ALWAYS using oil that meets both VW 502.00 and MB 229.5.
 
In Western Europe, Mercedes allows the use of 229.3 oils in the same engines it requires 229.5 oils in the rest of the world.
 
Originally Posted By: aa1986
In Western Europe, Mercedes allows the use of 229.3 oils in the same engines it requires 229.5 oils in the rest of the world.

That is very small number of engines and older ones. I have friends in Europe that are driving MB's and all are MB 229.5 or MB 229.51.
 
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