toyota 86 oil question

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

As I've already mentioned previously it's exactly the same situation as with Ford specifying the 5W-20 syn blend for the 435 hp Mustang GT. Ford is on record stating that nothing heavier is required even for track use regardless of how high the oil temp's get as the electronic safeties will at some point kick in before the oil gets too light. Period. Full stop. End of story.


Not quite. The same car ALSO calls for 5w-50 if you order it with the Track Pack, which changes or eliminates the castration mechanism AND comes with an oil cooler.

Which, as I also said earlier, seems to support the logic that if you are going to track your Mustang, Ford wants you to buy the Track Pack version of the car, which, as the name implies, comes ready to run on the track

So while you can track the regular GT (and possibly run into the thermal castration mechanism as SteveSRT8 observed happening at his local track), why would you if there's a specific version of the car that you should have purchased for that purpose if that was your intention?

 

[wemay]

Ford Mustang Owner's Manual (2014). Third Printing - Page 303, or 304 in the scroll box up top

w/o Track Pkg > 5w20 ///// w/Track Pkg > full synthetic 5w50

http://www.fordservicecontent.com/Ford_C...-US_02_2014.pdf

 

[Nate1979]

From the 2014 Chevy Corvette manual:
Viscosity Grade
SAE 5W-30 is the best viscosity grade for the vehicle.
For track events or competitive driving, use Mobil 1® 15W-50 engine oil. An instrument cluster warning light will be illuminated at high oil temperatures.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: Nate1979
From the 2014 Chevy Corvette manual:
Viscosity Grade
SAE 5W-30 is the best viscosity grade for the vehicle.
For track events or competitive driving, use Mobil 1® 15W-50 engine oil. An instrument cluster warning light will be illuminated at high oil temperatures.

It seems pretty obvious that almost all if not every manufacturer wants the engine run on thicker oil for track events.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Trav

Overkill help me out with this..
Years ago when real synthetics were common the pour points were way down and in the case of some German stuff still are like -60 to -65f, they don't pour out of the bottle much different than a dino 10w30. at say 50f. Whats going on with this?


Just the characteristics of a PAO-based oil IMHO. If you look at the CCS/MRV for some of the PAO-based oils (even ones that are ~30% like M1 AFE 0w-20/0w-30) they are quite impressive. If you extrapolate their visc at warmer temps using the "doubling rule" you will find that you really aren't that far off in your observation.

Example:

Valvoline WB 10w-30 has an MRV of 20,000cP @ -30C
Mobil 1 AFE 0w-30 has an MRV of 13,250cP @ -40C (30% PAO)

Now, based on the PDS's I've seen, I feel comfortable using the double rule up to about -20C (sorry, we are still a fair ways off from your 50F figure but this should still illustrate the point quite well)

At -20C:
VWB 10w-30: 5,000cP
AFE 0w-30: 828cP

That's a rather significant difference.

Note that I'm not 100% sure on how the rule works with respect to conventional oils, as I've not seen any PDS's that show MRV or CCS at multiple data points for one. They've all been some form of "synthetic" variant (including Group III based oils). But it should at least ballpark us for this comparison IMHO.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

As I've already mentioned previously it's exactly the same situation as with Ford specifying the 5W-20 syn blend for the 435 hp Mustang GT. Ford is on record stating that nothing heavier is required even for track use regardless of how high the oil temp's get as the electronic safeties will at some point kick in before the oil gets too light. Period. Full stop. End of story.


Not quite. The same car ALSO calls for 5w-50 if you order it with the Track Pack, which changes or eliminates the castration mechanism AND comes with an oil cooler.

Which, as I also said earlier, seems to support the logic that if you are going to track your Mustang, Ford wants you to buy the Track Pack version of the car, which, as the name implies, comes ready to run on the track

So while you can track the regular GT (and possibly run into the thermal castration mechanism as SteveSRT8 observed happening at his local track), why would you if there's a specific version of the car that you should have purchased for that purpose if that was your intention?

And plenty of Mustang GT owners track their cars without triggering the safety nannies that need oil temp's north of 230F as one member has discovered.

And that's the point, no harm will come to you're engine running the lightest oil specified and there is no point running anything heavier even if you do track your stock unmodified car.

 

[SlipperyPete]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
And that's the point, no harm will come to you're engine running the lightest oil specified and there is no point running anything heavier even if you do track your stock unmodified car.


The point of this thread, at least for those who exist outside the realm of your massive ego, is to use what the manufacturer recommends instead of taking the contrary advice of an internet loudmouth who has absolutely nothing with which to back up his musings.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

And plenty of Mustang GT owners track their cars without triggering the safety nannies that need oil temp's north of 230F as one member has discovered.


And you are a member of how many Mustang communities and have a firm grasp on the percentage of how many owners buy the non-Track Pack version of the GT and track it to properly base this statement too, correct? When the car first came out, Steve saw a few of them on his local track that were running into this "feature" presenting itself. For the owners of the car, I recall it being quite annoying. The Track Pack version of the car came out after the BOSS 302 as a way to give people a Track Ready version (and they don't mean Drag Strip) of the GT.

Obviously if there was not an issue with the car experiencing elevated oil temperatures, Ford would not have needed to come out with a Track Pack version of the car, that spec's a heavier oil and ALSO has an oil cooler.

This roundabout is getting ridiculous.


Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
And that's the point, no harm will come to you're engine running the lightest oil specified and there is no point running anything heavier even if you do track your stock unmodified car.


If we use the qualifier that the car SHOULD cripple itself by reducing power BEFORE damage occurs, sure. But this development/feature is quite new and not every car has it. Also, do we classify a car with a chip that might have some tweaks as "unmodified" or "stock", as technically nothing mechanical has been modified?

It is understandable that some people have some questions regarding the faith being put in a very new electronic nanny that is supposed to save their engine if the oil temperature gets too high. Given the failure rate of various sensors being manufactured by the lowest bidder as well as the inability for manufacturers to test these systems under all conditions, I believe their concerns are justified. It certainly makes sense, given those concerns, to investigate what the OEM themselves uses for track use with the same engine, which is what has manifested in this thread.

Also:

Originally Posted By: Nate1979
From the 2014 Chevy Corvette manual:
Viscosity Grade
SAE 5W-30 is the best viscosity grade for the vehicle.
For track events or competitive driving, use Mobil 1® 15W-50 engine oil. An instrument cluster warning light will be illuminated at high oil temperatures.


GM doesn't appear to agree with your all-encompassing blanket statement according to Nate's quote above

In fact it seems to align with the concerns I just mentioned.

And: http://www.gm.ca/media/owners/manuals/2014_Chevrolet_Camaro_3rd_Print_Manual_en_CA.pdf

Originally Posted By: GM

Viscosity Grade
SAE 5W-30 is the best viscosity grade for the vehicle. Do not use other viscosity grade oils such as SAE 10W-30, 10W-40, or 20W-50. On Z/28, for track events or competitive driving, use Mobil 1® 15W-50 engine oil. A warning message will display at high oil temperatures. See Engine Oil Messages on page 5-35.

Cold Temperature Operation:
In an area of extreme cold, where the temperature falls below −29°C (−20°F), an SAE 0W-30 oil may be used. An oil of this viscosity grade will provide easier cold starting for
the engine at extremely low temperatures. When selecting an oil of the appropriate viscosity grade, always select an oil of the correct specification. See “Specification” earlier in this section for more information.

 

[Trav]

Its obvious that no matter what the manuals state about other operating conditions requiring a heavier oil this guy is stuck in TGMO land with no exit visa.
Everyone else is wrong including the engineers who designed and built the engine.

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

And that's the point, no harm will come to you're engine running the lightest oil specified and there is no point running anything heavier even if you do track your stock unmodified car.


Fine. Produce the owners manual that states that and i give you the argument. I said produce it not something out of your imagination as to what you think or believe they mean.
Just that one sentence will do it, or something close to it.
Quote:
no harm will come to you're engine running the lightest oil specified even if you track your stock unmodified car.


Your ball.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

And on track session are short; typically 20-25 minutes.

Then there are the popular Solo 1 time trials, which are actual racing but just against the clock. Track sessions are very short
comprising only four laps; one warm-up, two timed laps and a cool down lap. Good luck getting you oil up to temperature at those events. No one with half a brain runs heavy oil. 20 and 30 grade motor oils dominate with the knowledgeable racers.


I can tell you right now that I can get my oil temp up to 90C during the summer in less than 20 minutes. I'm sure this is the case for many other cars that are tracked. So while what you posit may be the case for your cars, it most certainly isn't for all of them.

OVERKILL, my 3800 L67 cracks 100C on the highway (100km/h, 1800RPM) within 20 minutes any day of the week, even in freezing temperature...as I've posted elsewhere, if I hold it at 4,000RPM in "2", I've seen 125C in winter, and 135 just the other day.

My mind boggles that 20-25 mins these cars being tracked are still running cold oil.

 

[wemay]

I really don't get it...

'The arbitrary manufacturer says "use 0w20" so that means there's no reason to use anything else'.

But now we produce information from a manufacturer (Ford [Mustang])stating that if the Track Pkg is present, 5w50 is recommended. Why isnt the Owner's Manual good enough in this case??

I respect CATERHAM's opinion(s) on many an occasion as he is incredibly knowledgeable but this is just hardheadedness.

 

[Nate1979]

The Boss 302 also requires 5w-50.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Nate1979
The Boss 302 also requires 5w-50.


Yup, as do the Shelby cars.

 

[SteveSRT8]

As is typical here we dissect minutiae but forget that each platform has different requirements. I have indeed seen newer 5.0 Stangs neuter themselves at the track. But it is a rarity, as you must flog them mercilessly at high ambient temps to do so. Almost every modern car has the ability to retard spark and throttle in an overheat situation.

The mere fact they even specify a 50w oil should tell us they experience very high oil temps, but per both SRT and Mobil even 300 degrees is not excessive anymore.

I respect Caterham's opinions, they are generally well thought out. His claim of no damage on 20w oil is being proven every day in thousands and thousands of cars and trucks (my 14 Ram included).

But real track use is a different animal completely...

 

[demarpaint]

Wow this thread just won't die.

I found it is statements like this that can get people into trouble.


Quote:
And that's the point, no harm will come to you're engine running the lightest oil specified and there is no point running anything heavier even if you do track your stock unmodified car.

 

[nickolas84]

Toyota knows it's business... and in case it didn't, there are warranty claims for a reminder.
Tracking with a 0w-20 has been done, here is the thread click and temperatures were measured, well below the 150C threshold.
Personally I had no doubt about that. Modern engines with drive by wire are nearly impossible to put out of the manufacturers engine envelope. (as long as they are stock)

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Wow this thread just won't die.

I found it is statements like this that can get people into trouble.


Quote:
And that's the point, no harm will come to you're engine running the lightest oil specified and there is no point running anything heavier even if you do track your stock unmodified car.


He wont provide any proof only his own opinion and beliefs while sticking to and promoting his opinion as if i were fact.
This is a known tactic, repeat the falsehood often enough and it will become fact. It works unless you have people calling you out on them and you have no way to silence them.

That statement you posted is one of the best examples yet. The problem with this is some people will listen to this stuff and believe it.
What happens when the engine lets go? Warranty fraud, driver ed course?

This is an international forum and the specs stated in use in other countries or the manufacturer (in this case Toyota and Ford) specifies other oil for track use should be respected.
Truth be told there are a lot of other TGMO weights, that he chooses to ignore and every argument he uses for this one can be used for the others.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Wow this thread just won't die.

I found it is statements like this that can get people into trouble.


Quote:
And that's the point, no harm will come to you're engine running the lightest oil specified and there is no point running anything heavier even if you do track your stock unmodified car.


He wont provide any proof only his own opinion and beliefs while sticking to and promoting his opinion as if i were fact.
This is a known tactic, repeat the falsehood often enough and it will become fact. It works unless you have people calling you out on them and you have no way to silence them.

That statement you posted is one of the best examples yet. The problem with this is some people will listen to this stuff and believe it.
What happens when the engine lets go? Warranty fraud, driver ed course?

This is an international forum and the specs stated in use in other countries or the manufacturer (in this case Toyota and Ford) specifies other oil for track use should be respected.
Truth be told there are a lot of other TGMO weights, that he chooses to ignore and every argument he uses for this one can be used for the others.


In cases like this I go with the recommendations of people with a lot more experience than I have. Guys like yourself, Shannow, OVERKILL, and a few others. Then I take that information, mix in some common sense and make an informed decision. I would not be tracking a car with one of the thinnest 0W20 oils, TGMO in the sump. Sorry.................

Factual data is always good, and opinions are to be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[wemay]

All the contributors you mention, along with CATERHAM, have the said expertise and knowledge to back up their statements with personal experience and years of researching. The trump card for me is the manufacturer's manual.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: wemay
All the contributors you mention, along with CATERHAM, have the said expertise and knowledge to back up their statements with personal experience and years of researching. The trump card for me is the manufacturer's manual.


Good point on the OM. Add CATERHAM to the list I don't have a problem with that he is very knowledgeable. But for me the majority is going to rule in this case. Their arguments, credentials, and presentation was much more compelling to me.