new mustang GT350 to get flat plane crank
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Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
I was talking about design, as in the Mustang 350, the design of the car. The shape. The image. The over all package. The then fresh design that took some chances in the market place even though underneath is was nothing more than a Falcon. The engineers wanted independent rear suspension and a fancy overhead cam engine in the Mustang but Lee Iacocca said nutz to that, give them something fresh and exciting with a push rod V8 and they will have fun driving the car. Today designers have to go back to the past because frankly they are not able to create that same excitement today. Computers can solve and fix everything.
Lee Iaccoca envisioned the Mustang to be a small car, one that a woman would feel comfortable driving. When Ford [censored] it by shoving big V8's in it and making it more aggressive looking he got angry. He was not a fan of cars like the BOSS 429, BOSS 302...etc which strayed from his original vision.
When he became president of Ford he was the reason the Mustang II came out, possibly the worst production Mustang of all time.
The GT350 was Carol Shelby's brain child and that car had nothing to do with Iaccoca other than it was based on the car he originally helped create.
IIRC Iaccoca just threw an handful of Mustangs to Shelby and gave Shelby direction to make the Mustangs into a "sports car". Thus the GT350 was born and Shelby was not to trilled about making an secretary's car into an respectful muscle car. I believe Shelby said something about you can not make a racehorse out of a mule.
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
I was talking about design, as in the Mustang 350, the design of the car. The shape. The image. The over all package. The then fresh design that took some chances in the market place even though underneath is was nothing more than a Falcon. The engineers wanted independent rear suspension and a fancy overhead cam engine in the Mustang but Lee Iacocca said nutz to that, give them something fresh and exciting with a push rod V8 and they will have fun driving the car. Today designers have to go back to the past because frankly they are not able to create that same excitement today. Computers can solve and fix everything.
Lee Iaccoca envisioned the Mustang to be a small car, one that a woman would feel comfortable driving. When Ford [censored] it by shoving big V8's in it and making it more aggressive looking he got angry. He was not a fan of cars like the BOSS 429, BOSS 302...etc which strayed from his original vision.
When he became president of Ford he was the reason the Mustang II came out, possibly the worst production Mustang of all time.
The GT350 was Carol Shelby's brain child and that car had nothing to do with Iaccoca other than it was based on the car he originally helped create.
IIRC Iaccoca just threw an handful of Mustangs to Shelby and gave Shelby direction to make the Mustangs into a "sports car". Thus the GT350 was born and Shelby was not to trilled about making an secretary's car into an respectful muscle car. I believe Shelby said something about you can not make a racehorse out of a mule.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Flat crank 90 degree V-8s are reputed to be pretty rough.
I wonder what Ford has in mind for this volume car that's typically a boulevardier?
Not "reputed," its simple physics. A flat-plane crank v8 is essentially two inline-4 engines at a 90-degree angle, and as everyone knows all inline 4 cylinders have an incurable (short of balance shafts) 2nd-order imbalance. A flat-plane v8 has *two* incurable 2nd-order imbalances operating at 90 degrees to each other, which sorta makes the whole block want to vibrate in a circle at 2X the crankshaft speed.
The payoff is a much lighter crankshaft, since it doesn't require the big counter-weights. That lets it rev up a lot faster, so its great for lightweight high-performance applications.
Ford could have a real winner for a very track-oriented product here, but daily driver types aren't going to like it much.
And it sounds like a flatulent mosquito, just like Ferrari's do and for the same reason.
Flat crank 90 degree V-8s are reputed to be pretty rough.
I wonder what Ford has in mind for this volume car that's typically a boulevardier?
Not "reputed," its simple physics. A flat-plane crank v8 is essentially two inline-4 engines at a 90-degree angle, and as everyone knows all inline 4 cylinders have an incurable (short of balance shafts) 2nd-order imbalance. A flat-plane v8 has *two* incurable 2nd-order imbalances operating at 90 degrees to each other, which sorta makes the whole block want to vibrate in a circle at 2X the crankshaft speed.
The payoff is a much lighter crankshaft, since it doesn't require the big counter-weights. That lets it rev up a lot faster, so its great for lightweight high-performance applications.
Ford could have a real winner for a very track-oriented product here, but daily driver types aren't going to like it much.
And it sounds like a flatulent mosquito, just like Ferrari's do and for the same reason.
So basically they are trying to lower the center of gravity on the Mustang? I don't get the benefit. Unless they are going to slam the car, use a dry sump, and carbon fiber body...what are they achieving by moving a couple pounds a few inch's lower when its already a tall steel vehicle?
Muscle car guys won't like it, its going to sound like a 911 or a Ferrari, also American's hate motors that have to rev.
OTOH like GM is doing with the new C7 it might appeal more to a younger audience. Maybe pirate some M3 sales? Not sure.
Muscle car guys won't like it, its going to sound like a 911 or a Ferrari, also American's hate motors that have to rev.
OTOH like GM is doing with the new C7 it might appeal more to a younger audience. Maybe pirate some M3 sales? Not sure.
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I played the video a few times and could not detect anything wrong
with sound of the engine, other than it is boring.
The suspension obviously was not having a good time with the full weight of the car.
Take out everything except the driver's seat, including the air conditioning, air bags
carpet, window motors, and put some tires on the car after taking a cutting torch to the fenders.
Marketing and sales may not like the new look.....
with sound of the engine, other than it is boring.
The suspension obviously was not having a good time with the full weight of the car.
Take out everything except the driver's seat, including the air conditioning, air bags
carpet, window motors, and put some tires on the car after taking a cutting torch to the fenders.
Marketing and sales may not like the new look.....
Last edited by a moderator:
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
So basically they are trying to lower the center of gravity on the Mustang? I don't get the benefit. Unless they are going to slam the car, use a dry sump, and carbon fiber body...what are they achieving by moving a couple pounds a few inch's lower when its already a tall steel vehicle?
High redline, free revving, sharp throttle response, lots of top-end power, less mass at the front for a better CoG.
Regardless of the car around it, this is a HUGE step toward having a decent selection of committed sports cars that more than a tiny fraction of people can afford.
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Muscle car guys won't like it, its going to sound like a 911 or a Ferrari
One of the best received aspects of it so far is the sound. Check out the videos. Like McLaren, they seem to have avoided having it sound like a [censored]-off inline-4.
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
, also American's hate motors that have to rev.
That's what literally every single other car in the Mustang range is for.
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
OTOH like GM is doing with the new C7 it might appeal more to a younger audience. Maybe pirate some M3 sales? Not sure.
More or less. The chatter about it on M3Forum suggests they would be successful, too...
More generally, Ford has been trying to morph the Mustang from a pony car into a legit sports car with different trims for everyone.
Think of the GT350 as the Mustang GT3. There are plenty of cars for people who want torque, economy, usability, etc. This is the track star.
It also could be the most genuine sports car Ford has ever made other than the GT. We'll see if the drive matches the hype.
So basically they are trying to lower the center of gravity on the Mustang? I don't get the benefit. Unless they are going to slam the car, use a dry sump, and carbon fiber body...what are they achieving by moving a couple pounds a few inch's lower when its already a tall steel vehicle?
High redline, free revving, sharp throttle response, lots of top-end power, less mass at the front for a better CoG.
Regardless of the car around it, this is a HUGE step toward having a decent selection of committed sports cars that more than a tiny fraction of people can afford.
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Muscle car guys won't like it, its going to sound like a 911 or a Ferrari
One of the best received aspects of it so far is the sound. Check out the videos. Like McLaren, they seem to have avoided having it sound like a [censored]-off inline-4.
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
, also American's hate motors that have to rev.
That's what literally every single other car in the Mustang range is for.
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
OTOH like GM is doing with the new C7 it might appeal more to a younger audience. Maybe pirate some M3 sales? Not sure.
More or less. The chatter about it on M3Forum suggests they would be successful, too...
More generally, Ford has been trying to morph the Mustang from a pony car into a legit sports car with different trims for everyone.
Think of the GT350 as the Mustang GT3. There are plenty of cars for people who want torque, economy, usability, etc. This is the track star.
It also could be the most genuine sports car Ford has ever made other than the GT. We'll see if the drive matches the hype.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
The way to minimize vibration with a flat plane crank V8 is super lightweight internals and a high rod/stroke ratio. That's how Ferrari does it.
With an active motor mount these issues are easily solved. The tech is well proven and inexpensive...
The way to minimize vibration with a flat plane crank V8 is super lightweight internals and a high rod/stroke ratio. That's how Ferrari does it.
With an active motor mount these issues are easily solved. The tech is well proven and inexpensive...
Some people will love the sound, just like some people love the sound of F1 cars. I don't. Like the Viper V10, I find the sound of a flat-plane v8 to be droning and boring. Like a tractor engine on amphetamines.
None of that matters with regard to actual performance, and I understand the advantages of the flat-plane engine in a pure competition environment. But I'll lever like the sound.
None of that matters with regard to actual performance, and I understand the advantages of the flat-plane engine in a pure competition environment. But I'll lever like the sound.
I saw a new Mustang yesterday in person and my initial reaction is that thing is Mustang II ugly.
I'm a little curious about how they're stretching the displacement to 5.2L. The Ford Modular engine and its descendents I think have always been hamstrung by the 100mm bore spacing, and the current 5.0L has a 92.2 mm bore. They can't get to 5.2L by boring alone. If they go to a 93 mm bore, that only gets them from 4951 to 5038 cc's. So they'll have to stroke it by 3.5 - 4.0 mm. But going to an undersquare bore/stroke relationship is in the wrong direction to deal with the vibration issues brought on by the flat-plane crank. Maybe they'll raise the deck height so they can put in a longer connecting rod?
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OVERKILL
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Originally Posted By: A_Harman
I'm a little curious about how they're stretching the displacement to 5.2L. The Ford Modular engine and its descendents I think have always been hamstrung by the 100mm bore spacing, and the current 5.0L has a 92.2 mm bore. They can't get to 5.2L by boring alone. If they go to a 93 mm bore, that only gets them from 4951 to 5038 cc's. So they'll have to stroke it by 3.5 - 4.0 mm. But going to an undersquare bore/stroke relationship is in the wrong direction to deal with the vibration issues brought on by the flat-plane crank. Maybe they'll raise the deck height so they can put in a longer connecting rod?
Perhaps it is a destroked 5.8?
I'm a little curious about how they're stretching the displacement to 5.2L. The Ford Modular engine and its descendents I think have always been hamstrung by the 100mm bore spacing, and the current 5.0L has a 92.2 mm bore. They can't get to 5.2L by boring alone. If they go to a 93 mm bore, that only gets them from 4951 to 5038 cc's. So they'll have to stroke it by 3.5 - 4.0 mm. But going to an undersquare bore/stroke relationship is in the wrong direction to deal with the vibration issues brought on by the flat-plane crank. Maybe they'll raise the deck height so they can put in a longer connecting rod?
Perhaps it is a destroked 5.8?
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
So basically they are trying to lower the center of gravity on the Mustang? I don't get the benefit. Unless they are going to slam the car, use a dry sump, and carbon fiber body...what are they achieving by moving a couple pounds a few inch's lower when its already a tall steel vehicle?
High redline, free revving, sharp throttle response, lots of top-end power, less mass at the front for a better CoG.
Regardless of the car around it, this is a HUGE step toward having a decent selection of committed sports cars that more than a tiny fraction of people can afford.
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Muscle car guys won't like it, its going to sound like a 911 or a Ferrari
One of the best received aspects of it so far is the sound. Check out the videos. Like McLaren, they seem to have avoided having it sound like a [censored]-off inline-4.
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
, also American's hate motors that have to rev.
That's what literally every single other car in the Mustang range is for.
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
OTOH like GM is doing with the new C7 it might appeal more to a younger audience. Maybe pirate some M3 sales? Not sure.
More or less. The chatter about it on M3Forum suggests they would be successful, too...
More generally, Ford has been trying to morph the Mustang from a pony car into a legit sports car with different trims for everyone.
Think of the GT350 as the Mustang GT3. There are plenty of cars for people who want torque, economy, usability, etc. This is the track star.
It also could be the most genuine sports car Ford has ever made other than the GT. We'll see if the drive matches the hype.
Yeah but the Coyote 5L is already all of that and is in keeping with the Mustangs character.
IDK as one of the younger European car people Ford would be trying to get I don't see the point. The Boss 302 was that car, with a proper American V8.
Its certainly interesting though.
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
So basically they are trying to lower the center of gravity on the Mustang? I don't get the benefit. Unless they are going to slam the car, use a dry sump, and carbon fiber body...what are they achieving by moving a couple pounds a few inch's lower when its already a tall steel vehicle?
High redline, free revving, sharp throttle response, lots of top-end power, less mass at the front for a better CoG.
Regardless of the car around it, this is a HUGE step toward having a decent selection of committed sports cars that more than a tiny fraction of people can afford.
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Muscle car guys won't like it, its going to sound like a 911 or a Ferrari
One of the best received aspects of it so far is the sound. Check out the videos. Like McLaren, they seem to have avoided having it sound like a [censored]-off inline-4.
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
, also American's hate motors that have to rev.
That's what literally every single other car in the Mustang range is for.
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
OTOH like GM is doing with the new C7 it might appeal more to a younger audience. Maybe pirate some M3 sales? Not sure.
More or less. The chatter about it on M3Forum suggests they would be successful, too...
More generally, Ford has been trying to morph the Mustang from a pony car into a legit sports car with different trims for everyone.
Think of the GT350 as the Mustang GT3. There are plenty of cars for people who want torque, economy, usability, etc. This is the track star.
It also could be the most genuine sports car Ford has ever made other than the GT. We'll see if the drive matches the hype.
Yeah but the Coyote 5L is already all of that and is in keeping with the Mustangs character.
IDK as one of the younger European car people Ford would be trying to get I don't see the point. The Boss 302 was that car, with a proper American V8.
Its certainly interesting though.
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The Coyote 5.0 isn't a sports car engine. It's a really modern muscle car engine.
Voodoo is more of a sports car engine than... most sports car engines, honestly.
I am DYING to see this car. There is no shortage of performance out there, but legit sports cars are an endangered species below 911 money. The GT350 has a chance of being a legit sports car, and the engine might be the biggest single reason why.
Voodoo is more of a sports car engine than... most sports car engines, honestly.
I am DYING to see this car. There is no shortage of performance out there, but legit sports cars are an endangered species below 911 money. The GT350 has a chance of being a legit sports car, and the engine might be the biggest single reason why.
I'm impressed by the handling, the car stays so composed it looks like its just out for a sunday drive. The sound isn't that great to me though, sounds like it needs to rev a bit higher to get the good flat plane sound. It doesnt' need to sound like the Ferrari's do, but it needs something more to my ear atleast.
I'll say again, although I'm not a big fan of flat-plane V8s, its probably the right move. It doesn't attempt go head-to-head with the Hellcat- a contest it would lose- its attacking the (smallish) market in a very different direction that takes best advantage of the Mustang's lighter weight than the Challenger and Camaro, and one that neither Chrysler nor GM has gone after.
The GT350 is phenomenal. I drove an early pre-production example.
I am no Hellcat fan...it's just a Benz.
I am no Hellcat fan...it's just a Benz.
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
The sound isn't that great to me though, sounds like it needs to rev a bit higher to get the good flat plane sound. It doesnt' need to sound like the Ferrari's do, but it needs something more to my ear atleast.
They were trying to make it sound like a muscle car so they wouldn't alienate the Mustang's fan base. Most flat-plane crank V8s (including Ferrari's) just sound like really big, really angry inline-4s; obviously that wouldn't wash for a lot of people. Ford seems to have ended up with some weird hybrid of the traditional flat-plane crank sound and that of a normal muscle car V8.
McLaren must be doing something similar. They use flat-plane crank V8s but make them sound similar to cross-plane crank V8s.
Also, naturally aspirated engines with this much horsepower per liter tend to sound pretty screamy and raspy. No way around that.
The sound isn't that great to me though, sounds like it needs to rev a bit higher to get the good flat plane sound. It doesnt' need to sound like the Ferrari's do, but it needs something more to my ear atleast.
They were trying to make it sound like a muscle car so they wouldn't alienate the Mustang's fan base. Most flat-plane crank V8s (including Ferrari's) just sound like really big, really angry inline-4s; obviously that wouldn't wash for a lot of people. Ford seems to have ended up with some weird hybrid of the traditional flat-plane crank sound and that of a normal muscle car V8.
McLaren must be doing something similar. They use flat-plane crank V8s but make them sound similar to cross-plane crank V8s.
Also, naturally aspirated engines with this much horsepower per liter tend to sound pretty screamy and raspy. No way around that.
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