toyota 86 oil question

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Originally Posted By: Caterham
Making warranty claims for engines damaged at the track is not uncommon even thou they are usually driver errors, such as over reving by catching the wrong gear on a downshift. And yes there is an element of dishonesty when making these claims but many are successfully made nonetheless.

Nice, real nice now your saying if you want to collect on the insurance or warranty you have to commit fraud. What the heck are you saying man, thats a crime.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: Caterham
Making warranty claims for engines damaged at the track is not uncommon even thou they are usually driver errors, such as over reving by catching the wrong gear on a downshift. And yes there is an element of dishonesty when making these claims but many are successfully made nonetheless.

Nice, real nice now your saying if you want to collect on the insurance or warranty you have to commit fraud. What the heck are you saying man, thats a crime.

Well of course that's not what I'm saying at all.
Collision insurance claims are made for on track "driver education" mishaps and there is no fraud involved that I know of, but they will result in an "at fault" claim on your record.
Personally I've never made a collision claim in my life but it's not unusual for the occasional track newbies to "loose it" even with an instructor in the car. I've never had one of my "students" have a problem although I have had some beginners that were so erratic that I kept one hand on the steering wheel for the entire session.

Not surprisingly breaking engines is not unusual at the track.
And when it results from driver error some will still try to see if the warranty will cover it. And it still will.
It has nothing to do with me, but being involved in racing and track day activities for over 40 years there's not much I haven't observed.

Bringing the subject back to motor oil, that's another reason not to deviate from what's specified. Running a ridiculously heavy oil such as the 10W-60 grade you're suggesting would be very foolish indeed although I hope no one reading this thread would remotely consider it. I have witnessed engines broken at the track by guys showing up with 50 grade oil in the sump on a cold day. When their track session came up, it's maximum rev's on a virtually stone cold engine with disastrous results.

In fact it had been an occasional problem with more exotic cars like Ferrari, Lamborghini etc that used to be specified for low VI 50 grade oil and the 10W-60 grade in more recent times as long term club members will tell you.
For the past few years just relatively light 0W/5W-40 (HTHSV 3.6-3.9cP) grades are spec'd which has largely mitigated the problem.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
I have witnessed engines broken at the track by guys showing up with 50 grade oil in the sump on a cold day. When their track session came up, it's maximum rev's on a virtually stone cold engine with disastrous results.


Cool, this is the point in the thread that I once again ask you provide facts and data...if you've seen them, you can certainly list them, what actually happened, and what the failure mechanism was.

I've asked this on numerous occasions at this juncture in any thread that you've made the statement...the blown engines...many...details.

I'm expecting the same response
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Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The insurance subject was intended as an aside,


translation...diversion, obfuscation...look over there, a bunny.

But as you brought it up, and how you have "counesled" others in dealing with it, (and avoiding "red flags" in the process)...as per Trav's point
Quote:
Fraud
A false representation of a matter of fact—whether by words or by conduct, by false or misleading allegations, or by concealment of what should have been disclosed—that deceives and is intended to deceive another so that the individual will act upon it to her or his legal injury.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM


Bringing the subject back to motor oil, that's another reason not to deviate from what's specified. Running a ridiculously heavy oil such as the 10W-60 grade you're suggesting would be very foolish indeed although I hope no one reading this thread would remotely consider it. I have witnessed engines broken at the track by guys showing up with 50 grade oil in the sump on a cold day. When their track session came up, it's maximum rev's on a virtually stone cold engine with disastrous results.

In fact it had been an occasional problem with more exotic cars like Ferrari, Lamborghini etc that used to be specified for low VI 50 grade oil and the 10W-60 grade in more recent times as long term club members will tell you.
For the past few years just relatively light 0W/5W-40 (HTHSV 3.6-3.9cP) grades are spec'd which has largely mitigated the problem.


Wrong again. I am not the recommending it. Toyota is. LOL
As far as the rest of this stuff you are totally wrong. I rode Aral Cup 600cc Yamaha bikes for a few years in the early-mid 90's on 10w50 and 10w60 as did most other guys and never lost the engine although i have some metal joints and plates from riding bikes.

Why don't you state that all this is just your opinion not based an facts or company recommendations because you cannot prove anything you say.
If so produce it. I present Toyota's own document as my proof, obviously they don't think its ridiculously heavy.
As far as running an engine at the track or otherwise at full RPM stone cold, someone would have to be a total moron. That idiot deserves any problems he gets, he asked for it.

Your credibility is taking a big hit here, your nonsensical arguments against published company recommendations is ludicrous, you are looking like either sore looser or a someone who is clueless.
Show me a document, any document from either Toyota, Subaru or Scion that says its okay to track the car with the FA engine on 0w20 in the sump and they will warranty it.
I'm sorry you are really showing you know very little about engines and how they work under high stress conditions.

Produce the documentation and your off the hook. Waiting.

.
 
Good luck with that, people rarely change their beliefs, especially with broken ego involved.

I mean tracking a car with cold engine in Canadian winter. Great example of why people should not use 10w60 oils when tracking.
 
I dunno, from a Canadian's point of view its hard to tell
which side Caterham is on.

The German's or the American's???

I have two 2013 Matrix in need of oil changes when
I get back to BC.
Where can I get 10W60 and we'll solve the mystery.
 
Originally Posted By: chrisri
Good luck with that, people rarely change their beliefs, especially with broken ego involved.




Very true, although sometimes admitting you're wrong gets you off the hook, and people respect you for it.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav

Wrong again. I am not the recommending it. Toyota is.

What Toyota spec's for a real racing application, as I have explained in detail already, has absolutely nothing to do with what oil's appropriate for their production car. And the oil Toyota spec's that will satisfied warranty requirements is the 0W-20 grade, period. Nothing heavier is required and that includes for track day use.
[/quote]

Originally Posted By: Trav

As far as running an engine at the track or otherwise at full RPM stone cold, someone would have to be a total moron. That idiot deserves any problems he gets, he gets, he asked for it.

Once again you just proved your total lack of actual track experience. In this whole thread you've made no reference to oil temp's or oil pressure or any actual reference to operational viscosity. You've made no reference to what oil temp's are necessary running a 10W-60 before the oil pump is out of by-pass mode with the FA20 engine. You've just latched onto something you've read and foolishly concluded "that's the proof I want". After all you're on record stating the 20 grade is just one big conspiracy, just so everyone knows where your heads at. LOL.

Again as I've explained in this thread, running heavy motor oil is very problematic at the track because of the cold/hot cycles that occur throughout the day at most events. And yes noboby but nobody is allowed precious track time to properly warm up an engine under load during track day activities. Knowing this, what's moronic is showing up at the track with a heavy 50 or 60 grade oil in the sump. If you had any track experience you'd learn this soon enough.

Originally Posted By: Trav

Show me a document, any document from either Toyota, Subaru or Scion that says its okay to track the car with the FA engine on 0w20 in the sump and they will warranty it.

Once again you're just confirming your total ignorance of track day activities. Many are actually sponsored by dealers, auto manufacturers and of course dedicated single make sports car clubs. It simply is not an issue. And this isn't just about the Toyota 86, BRS and FR-S cars but all the other so-called hot hatches that are now spec'd 0W/5W-20 that tend to dominate track days. I have never once heard of a warranty claim denied resulting from someone taking part in a track day event.

BTW, just as a point of interest, I recently saw an VW GT1 commercial on TV (yes I know it's not spec'd a 20 grade) and there was a view of the on board computer that boldly displayed "LAP TIME" which obviously caught my eye.
 
What would be the downside of running the oil pump in bypass?

It seems like the bypass is just dumping the excess oil the engine can't use
or does not need.

If the oil viscosity is lowered to avoid bypass, obviously more oil is
being pumped through the engine.

But where is that oil being pumped to and is it needed where it is going,
besides in larger circles than from pump bypass to sump?

Does all this extra pumping of a lower viscosity oil shear the lubricant
sooner than a smaller pump and a thicker engine oil would?
 
So all this blather and still coming up empty on your Google searches eh.
Now the Toyota car is something else now, a "real racing car"? Its a stock 200 HP engine, not some boosted high HP monster.

So lets get this right your track car is nothing more than a driver ed car going around a few times and you are no more a racer than i am an Mao Mao fighter pilot.
Okay how does this bypass mode work? My stock Honda bike has 98 PSI minimum oil pressure at 1100 RPM before tripping a low OP warning, it uses a spin on oil filter.

So you are claiming you cant run high oil pressure because its limited by the oil filter bypass? In the case of the FA anything 24 PSI and over the filter is in bypass.
So what? Are you claiming that on 0w20 it cant make 24 PSI? So it will go into bypass even on 0w20, whats your point.

I have not latched on to anything i read factual info and have a lot of experience (since 1992) with 10w60 oil in street engines both car and bike as well as race prepped 4 stroke bikes.
Over 250,000 Km on one street engine alone run on nothing but 10w60 from the first regular OCI.
I guess it went quarter of a million Km in bypass and is still going strong 21 years later with the new owner.

This really does look like a racing engine. LOL Spec on the FA "race car" Its a stock engine.
Quote:
Type Production based 2.0l 4-cylinder, boxer, naturally aspirated
Direct injection
Compression 12,5 : 1
Bore /stroke 86mm / 86mm
Displacement1998cm³
Power /torque 200hp@ ~7000rpm 205Nm @ ~6400-6600rpm
Max.engine speed 7450rpm


I think you need to figure this bypass thing out some more.

Take a common spin on oil filter with a high teens to twenties bypass valve setting and tell me how much is being filtered at running RPM and normal oil pressure and oil temp. Could it be about 10%?
How much is being filtered at idle when oil pressure drops dramatically like on some older cars?
Will the 10w60 ever be thin enough so the filter is not in bypass mode at idle?

Will both oils be filtered through a full flow filter at idle?
Is it true that only about 10% of the oil is being filtered by a full flow filer with a bypass at any given time at RPM's above idle unless you have a bad pump or other low oil pressure issues?

Answer these questions and you will see your filter bypass arguments evaporate before you eyes.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
So all this blather and still coming up empty on your Google searches eh.
Now the Toyota car is something else now, a "real racing car"? Its a stock 200 HP engine, not some boosted high HP monster.

So lets get this right your track car is nothing more than a driver ed car going around a few times and you are no more a racer than i am an Mao Mao fighter pilot.
Okay how does this bypass mode work? My stock Honda bike has 98 PSI minimum oil pressure at 1100 RPM before tripping a low OP warning, it uses a spin on oil filter.

So you are claiming you cant run high oil pressure because its limited by the oil filter bypass? In the case of the FA anything 24 PSI and over the filter is in bypass.
So what? Are you claiming that on 0w20 it cant make 24 PSI? So it will go into bypass even on 0w20, whats your point.

I have not latched on to anything i read factual info and have a lot of experience (since 1992) with 10w60 oil in street engines both car and bike as well as race prepped 4 stroke bikes.
Over 250,000 Km on one street engine alone run on nothing but 10w60 from the first regular OCI.
I guess it went quarter of a million Km in bypass and is still going strong 21 years later with the new owner.

This really does look like a racing engine. LOL Spec on the FA "race car" Its a stock engine.
Quote:
Type Production based 2.0l 4-cylinder, boxer, naturally aspirated
Direct injection
Compression 12,5 : 1
Bore /stroke 86mm / 86mm
Displacement1998cm³
Power /torque 200hp@ ~7000rpm 205Nm @ ~6400-6600rpm
Max.engine speed 7450rpm


I think you need to figure this bypass thing out some more.

Take a common spin on oil filter with a high teens to twenties bypass valve setting and tell me how much is being filtered at running RPM and normal oil pressure and oil temp. Could it be about 10%?
How much is being filtered at idle when oil pressure drops dramatically like on some older cars?
Will the 10w60 ever be thin enough so the filter is not in bypass mode at idle?

Will both oils be filtered through a full flow filter at idle?
Is it true that only about 10% of the oil is being filtered by a full flow filer with a bypass at any given time at RPM's above idle unless you have a bad pump or other low oil pressure issues?

Answer these questions and you will see your filter bypass arguments evaporate before you eyes.



I believe he was talking about the oil pump bypass/relief, not the one on the filter, which only activates when there is a pressure differential and is independent of actual operating/observed oil pressure.

Of course pump relief pressure is engine family (and sometimes engine) dependant and when an engine will engage the relief varies wildly as per my own examples I've provided with my SBF experience. And there are other engines (like a specific Mopar that was mentioned) that is apparently on the pressure relief all the time.
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I thought Trav's answer was right on!!!

Just a different way of saying it.

The argument for thinner oils is that they are not in "oil pump bypass"
as much as thicker oils.

My answer to that is; "So what"?

Pumping a lighter oil around the engine for nothing is still bypassing it,
except the oil is taking the long route back to the sump.

The same applies to the filter.

"Oh look, your oil is in filter bypass more than my oil".

Same answer; "So what?"
All oils are in filter bypass most of the time.

Trav responded with the exact answer I was hoping he would.
 
2013 Matrix x2 putting 10w60, are you Crazy!!
They will die a slow death literally.

I would like to know what kind of condition those Engines are in at the end of a full race season?
What components have failed and so on.
Putting a crazy amount heavier, less shear and heat stable oil in the engine does what?
Robs power and physically trys to push parts apart cant be good for longevity can it?
 
Originally Posted By: used_0il

The same applies to the filter.

"Oh look, your oil is in filter bypass more than my oil".

Same answer; "So what?"
All oils are in filter bypass most of the time.

Trav responded with the exact answer I was hoping he would.


That's not the case. The oil filter is only in bypass when there is a differential across the media. This happens with cold thick oil and may happen if the oil pump's output in GPM is more than the filter media's flow ability for a given viscosity at a given RPM. So say your filter media can flow 3GPM of 5w-30 at 80C and your oil pump displaces 4GPM of oil at 4,000RPM, there is going to be a bypass event happening by the creation of a pressure differential across the media at that point.

This is why oil filters don't collapse under oil pressure. They see pressure on both sides of the media, as does the bypass valve. The engine is more restrictive than the filter so as long as the volume of oil being displaced by the pump is capable of flowing through the media, it will. As volume increases, if it overruns the capacity of the media, this creates a pressure differential (more pressure on the outside of the media, less on the inside) and once this differential reaches the pressure that triggers the bypass, the bypass will open to reduce the differential. How much goes through the bypass will depend on how much is required to satisfy the differential.

All of this happens transparently of oil pressure, which is an artifact of resistance of the SYSTEM, not resistance against the FILTER, which is usually mostly transparent unless the conditions indicated above are observed.

Gary Allen tasked himself with demonstrating this with a Jeep 4.0L several years back using a remote mount oil filter with pressure adapters fitted both before and after the filter. On initial start-up there would be a surge in differential pressure that would eventually equalize and there was only a small difference between the pressures observed on either side of the filter in most operating conditions. He could manually trigger a bypass event (create a differential) by rapidly increasing engine RPM IIRC.
 
His use of the term "bypass" instead of pressure relief threw me off, i am not use to that term used in connection with pumps.
No matter, this is just another argument this guy ginned up like you can blow the engine when you race it stone cold, this is because he cant find any documentation to prove anything he claims.

As you pointed out the oiling circuit is regulated. It has to be and usually in more than one way.
If it wasn't oil filter housings would be blowing up all over the place.

As usual I see he is trying to side track the issue here. No proof or documentation, no problem baffle em with bovine excrement and question their experiences.
The Toyota engineers obviously took this all into account when they spec'd 10w60 for this engine. End of story.
You cant song and dance around this Caterham, come up with some proof!
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Trav
His use of the term "bypass" instead of pressure relief threw me off, i am not use to that term used in connection with pumps.
No matter, this is just another argument this guy ginned up like you can blow the engine when you race it stone cold, this is because he cant find any documentation to prove anything he claims.

As you pointed out the oiling circuit is regulated. It has to be and usually in more than one way.
If it wasn't oil filter housings would be blowing up all over the place.


Yup, like the exploding filter canisters on the Modulars when they had a stuck pressure relief on the pump, LOL!!!
 
Canisters is the word i was looking for instead of housing, thanks for that. LOL
I am talking to my son in German and typing in English.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
Canisters is the word i was looking for instead of housing, thanks for that. LOL
I am talking to my son in German and typing in English.


cheers3.gif
 
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