What will happen if...

[UrS4]

Ok guys. I already tried finding info about this topic but I wasn't successful getting good answers. So now I'll ask BITOG and hopefully someone knows and are willing to share the their knowledge

I have been wondering what will happen if HD-diesel engines in 18-wheelers and off-road machinery is being run on high quality syn PCMO like mobil-1, Shell Helix Ultra / pennzoil GTL, German Castrol Edge or something similar. Perhaps also OEM vw 504/507 and MB 229.5x .....

How well will these oils protect the engine and for how long compared to designated HD diesel engine oil? I know that this is by far a question that has a simple and straight forward answer because it most likely will depend the application.

I want you to be aware that I'm not going to dump a lot of expensive oil into big diesel's - I'm just curious how well or how bad the result might/will be.

Thanks in advance
// Greg

 

[eljefino]

The closest anecdata you might find is from the 1980s when people ran Benz and olds diesels in passenger cars with PCMO.

M1 carries and even then carried a rudimentary diesel approval.

 

[Rand]

they have different design criteria, I doubt it would be able to handle the soot suspension and would sludge up in an extended interval.


This is one of those what ifs that should never happen, proper rated oil is the same price or cheaper... than the wrong oil.

 

[userfriendly]

That is the best question I've seen for a while, and I read it six times.

We can share opinions on the subject, perhaps even informed opinions.

To mask either as knowledge becomes a problem on this site.

Personally I don't have an informed opinion or knowledge.

 

[CT8]

The HDEO oils are designed for a more severe duty cycle. They protect longer.

 

[UrS4]

Originally Posted By: used_0il
That is the best question I've seen for a while, and I read it six times.

We can share opinions on the subject, perhaps even informed opinions.

To mask either as knowledge becomes a problem on this site.

Personally I don't have an informed opinion or knowledge.



Thanks for supporting my question and for being open-minded.



Maybe I should have added this in the first post..
I'm not really interested in peoples personal opinion, feelings or presumption about what might happen/what good or bad for the engine and so on. Sorry.

What I'm looking for is more a scientific answer form someone who know based on lots of experience from e.g.: working with different add-packs combined with different base oils, or from dealing with test rigs and UOA's at OEM-level

Where is guys like e.g. MolaKule when we need them

 

[m37charlie]

I suspect everything will be fine. Especially if one uses a high quality oil like M1 0W40. It has lots of detergent and dispersant and enough ZDDP. I'd use it as a top-up oil in my Unimog (if I didn't carry 2 gal of D1 SHC...).

Charlie

 

[userfriendly]

Those guys are on here, usually seen right on my tail.

That is why I posted a "safe" answer instead of an opinion that gets me busted
every time.

Like : "can you back that up with facts?"

What?.... Facts? Me?

Then I'll disappear for a week or ten years....

But an elephant never forgets, nor a stubborn mule with a tattoo.

OK, watch. I'll post an opinion based on assumptions and lets see what happens......

Against my better judgement of course.

I think that all of those engine oils you listed in your question would work just
fine and dandy in the appropriate viscosity grades.

Not every oil company is going to certify every lubricant against every qualification
and pay for the licencing, just so every one of their products can be used anywhere.

I hope English is not a second language for you, because that is quite a mouthful.

 

[TiredTrucker]

PCMO oils, in general, are not designed to protect the SCR and DPF downstream emission components of modern diesels. And was mentioned, soot suspension. The newer diesels with EGR equipment on them really generate massive amounts of soot in the oil. Keeping that soot from clumping and becoming a major problem was the focus of the current CJ-4 HDEO spec. And even that spec is being challenged. The next HDEO spec is on the horizon and in testing now. Currently known as the PC-11 spec (who knows if that is what it will be called when it gets out here in the real world). And you have to take into account, that the current crop of HDEO's have to meet stuff like 50,000 mile / 1000 engine hour OCI's that engine OEM's like Detroit are specifying in their current production engines. I am not sure any PCMO only engine oil is up to the challenge. Most engines that PCMO is designed for are not putting out 1800-2000+ lbs of torque at low RPMs like many current crop of diesels are. Many heavy diesels are reaching peak torque at 1000-1100 RPM and being continuously operated in the 1200-1300 RPM range running down the road. That puts a lot of stress on any oil. The add pack has to be tailored to that.

 

[spasm3]

The HDEO oils have much high zinc. The load on the crank and rod bearings has to be much higher with compression ratios of 22:1.

 

[userfriendly]

Still after several hours nothing you can take to the bank Greg.

Lots of hits on this thread, but nobody taking the bait but me.

Since the sulfur was taken out of on-road Diesel fuel the difference between pcmo
and hdmo is not as apparent as it once was.

Evidence to that is CJ-4/SN

That "API spec only" was already flogged once today.

It is what it is, the top API approval in both Diesel and spark ignition.

What about the other way around is your question.

Well, what do you think?

I know what I think, and I had the guts to state it, but sense not to tell
anyone to go straight ahead and do it.

Would I put pcmo in a Diesel? Yes.

Would I put a zinc containing pcmo in a locomotive Diesel engine? No.

So there is my answer. Yes and no.

 

[Shannow]

When I bought my Nissan (3.0 TDI), I was shocked that I couldn't run things like Delvac1 through the warranty period, as Nissan wouldn't let you use anything "better" then CF4...it's been run almost exclusively on PCMO, and does really really well, but makes very little soot...and I think in context of the question soot is probably the issue, Doug Hillary offering that his soot numbers at oil condemn limits were whole numbers of percent...I don't think a PCMO can do that.

When I was pondering my Nissan, I came across this document from Caltex offering that even on the big diesels there were design nuances within the American, Japanese and Europeans, and Caltex had three discrete oils for them.

I chose Delo CXJ - in hindsight, shouldn't have bothered chasing it down...a very very high ash very thick dino, and only used during the first 10,000km.

edit...added my UOA on the Magnatec PCMO in the Nissan.

 

[UrS4]

There are a couple of reasons I came up with this topic
1. some TDI's run up to 50000 km OCI on a vw 507 oil.
2. I seem to recall that some BITOG'er said that vw 504/507 is very close to ether ACEA E7 or E9 which is a modern mid/low SAPS oil for commercial diesel engines.
Now...
If that's true I don't really see why vw507 shouldn't perform OK in truck engines made by e.g. volvo, cummins, scania, MB, DAF, renault, M.A.N. and so on..

 

[TiredTrucker]

Considering this thread centers on heavier duty diesels than a little VW engine, that would explain why it didn't go the way you envisioned. There is posting area for baby diesels. Kinda hard to equate what someone might do with a 3.0L little diesel compared to a 15L heavy diesel running at half the RPM having to move 100,000 lb thru the mountains. VW rated oil is not approved for any heavy truck diesel that I know of. Not sure anyone would care to pay some form of premium on the price of the oil just for some privilege of having that spec a part of list of specs that an oil already has, especially at 10 gallons a fill for an oil change. No one that runs heavy diesels in America really pay any attention to European oil specs. Go down to a truckstop and see if the specs you mentioned are even on the back of a bottle of diesel oil on the shelf.

Doesn't mean that it wouldn't work, I suppose, just no one is looking for it and the market for heavy duty diesels in America is not focused on what Europe is doing, especially in cars. The U.S. manuals on virtually all major engine brands in heavy duty trucks doesn't even list the European specs. It is a stretch to think anyone would even consider it in a heavy duty diesel here.

But to be fair here, the oil companies, at least the one I use, Schaeffer, show meeting the spec you mentioned on the oil technical data sheets. Just no one with heavy diesels in America is really paying attention to Euro specs.

http://www.schaefferoil.com/documents/244-9000-td.pdf

http://www.schaefferoil.com/documents/222-700-td.pdf

 

[Ken2]

"These oils are especially effective at sustaining emission control system durability where particulate filters and other advanced aftertreatment systems are used. Optimum protection is provided for control of catalyst poisoning, particulate filter blocking, engine wear, piston deposits, low- and high-temperature stability, soot handling properties, oxidative thickening, foaming, and viscosity loss due to shear. "
http://www.apicj-4.org/servicecategory_description.html

http://www.apicj-4.org/performance_specs.html

http://www.infineum.com/API/API_2013/main.swf?page=5 (you can flip to the CJ-4 page to compare the tests)

 

[userfriendly]

I think URS4 is aware of the situation and selection and educating him/her on common-
knowledge trivia is dancing around the question somewhat.
(Unless it is leading us to "why" this is so, for other than for logistic reasons.)

The topic begs the questions;
What makes one engine oil more soot tolerant than the next?

(I thought the answer was the solubility of the base oil.)

What additives would be found in a more Diesel specific engine oil, which would
not be found in one of the choices in the original question?

What additive would be in PCMOs that would be undesirable in a Diesel engine oil?
(no wet clutch/multi function answers allowed)

 

[UrS4]

Originally Posted By: used_0il
I think URS4 is aware of the situation and selection and educating him/her on common-
knowledge trivia is dancing around the question somewhat.
(Unless it is leading us to "why" this is so, for other than for logistic reasons.)

The topic begs the questions;
What makes one engine oil more soot tolerant than the next?

(I thought the answer was the solubility of the base oil.)

What additives would be found in a more Diesel specific engine oil, which would
not be found in one of the choices in the original question?

What additive would be in PCMOs that would be undesirable in a Diesel engine oil?
(no wet clutch/multi function answers allowed)

I think you pretty much hit the nail on its head..


It seems that most guys in here think gasoline-only-oil when they read PCMO.
When I posted the question I didn't had gasoline-only-oils in mind (properly because I'm from Europe - and in Europe about 50% of all the passenger cars are diesels).
What I had in mind was high quality synth oils that is rated for both gasoline and diesel like vw 504/507, mb 229.5x or something similar.

What used_0il pointed out about what makes PCMO's(I guess gasoline-only-oil, am I right?) different and/or undesirable in a diesel engines is certainly a good question - but maybe that question should have it's own designated thread....

 

[userfriendly]

URS4,
I just found a result of me using a PCMO oil in a duramax,
It is in the "question of the day" section.
OR3: what is the lubricant?
I can't make much sense of the thread, but there my uoa sits.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
Greg - You said this;
"How well will these oils protect the engine and for how long compared to designated HD diesel engine oil? I know that this is by far a question that has a simple and straight forward answer because it most likely will depend the application."

Depending on the engine family and application the answers will vary from "Ok" to "disaster"

For example MB and CAT have had well defined Specs for decades - as has the UM Mil - with Mil Specs

Much depends on the engine family - design, combustion process, metallurgy and location of end use

When US diesel engine designs changed (driven by noise, emissions, better economy etc) in the 1970s the Workshops were littered with engine failures. This was caused by the API not keeping up with the pace of change - Fleets just continued to use "their" HD lubricant with very very poor end results. Even the latest API Spec of the time was deficient!

Due to their operation bore glazing and excessive wear caused by soot loading were just some of the issues - they remain issues today

I could go on is some depth but the facts remain - it's always wise to use a lubricant as specified by the OEM

With HD diesel engines being sold into many and diverse markets the correct specification is required to get even near an engines first design life. The ACEA Specs are a very good baseline considering the design influence of the Euro Manufactures on US HD diesel engine design

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: UrS4
It seems that most guys in here think gasoline-only-oil when they read PCMO. When I posted the question I didn't had gasoline-only-oils in mind (properly because I'm from Europe - and in Europe about 50% of all the passenger cars are diesels).

This is the biggest clue. In Europe, a "PCMO" might have a wider definition than here, at least in my view. Here, most think of an ILSAC rated lubricant. I wouldn't want to be running an ILSAC rated lubricant in most diesel engines.

A bit of an older diesel engine (assuming it's not calling for something overly strenuous or exotic) would do fine on a 10w-40 with an older CF rating, or most anything newer with the appropriate ratings, like CJ-4, including a 10w-30 CJ-4. I wouldn't, however, be trying an SN/GF-5 10w-30 (or 5w-30 or 5w-20 or 0w-20) in such an application.