EPA Proposal on R-134a: The End Is Near

Status
Not open for further replies.
Originally Posted By: jrustles
Originally Posted By: Shannow
R600/290 blend does fine.

Couldn't believe the availability of 134 in the States versus here, so gotta do what you have to.


HC refrigerants are superior!! I'd say the lack of availability did you a fave.

I've been looking at OZ Chill's hydrocarbon 410a replacements
Check out Duracool, its a Canadian company based in Edmonton, Alberta. I have been using their refrigerant in my vehicles for years and never had a problem.
 
Originally Posted By: jetmech1
Originally Posted By: Shannow
jetmech1, great post, I concur with your assessment.


Thanks. I said I wasn't going to post beyond this, but I'm going to have to break my own rule. Why is important.

I just looked up the MSDS of R-1234yf and R-152a. If I'm reading this right, the German's got this right. It's been a while since I've had HAZMAT training while working for the freight airline, but if I'm reading this right R-1234yf is much more flammable than R-152a. R-1234yf is a Class 1 and R-152a is Class 2. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this assessment, but HFO-1234yf is way more dangerous.
Here's the links: I just checked them in preview. The first one take a moment or two to load.

R-1234yf MSDS

R-152a MSDS

Universal Global Harmonized MSDS Classifications Page 10 and 11 of this PDF are the important ones.

I'm going to follow this thread.

Thanks,
Mark


When R134a was $1.99 on sale at Walmart several years ago, I loaded up. I recently ran out and see that it is up to $11-$15 a can depending on where you buy it.

I now use R152a via duster cans and a side tap. I can usually get these for about $5 a can. It's a straight drop in and completely compatable with PAG oil. Cooling is identical to R134a. I'm not concerned that it is slightly flammable. It is the oil in mist form that creates the bigest danger anyhow. Of all my years of searching the web, I have yet to come across a serious fire by anyone who has used a flammable HC refrigerant which is supposedly much more dangerous than R152a.
 
Originally Posted By: xxch4osxx
Check out Duracool, its a Canadian company based in Edmonton, Alberta. I have been using their refrigerant in my vehicles for years and never had a problem.


I blend my own...
 
Originally Posted By: beechcraftted
OK, so R-12 was banned around 1994, because it damaged the ozone layer and this gave us R-134a by EPA decree. Now the EU is already banning R-134a because of poor global warming properties. Automakers are already being offered tax incentive credits to make the change now, by EPA decree.

Also, my buddy in the auto HVAC business says that although R-134a will not be banned outright, there are going to be HUGE taxes on it. Start stocking up now.

I know, no politics, but I gotta wonder about the $$$$' the EPA has cost all of us.


The EPA has made the car manufactures produce cars that have power, less maintenance and better gas mileage. I thank them for this.
 
Originally Posted By: hoosierrun
Originally Posted By: jetmech1
Originally Posted By: Shannow
jetmech1, great post, I concur with your assessment.


Thanks. I said I wasn't going to post beyond this, but I'm going to have to break my own rule. Why is important.

I just looked up the MSDS of R-1234yf and R-152a. If I'm reading this right, the German's got this right. It's been a while since I've had HAZMAT training while working for the freight airline, but if I'm reading this right R-1234yf is much more flammable than R-152a. R-1234yf is a Class 1 and R-152a is Class 2. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this assessment, but HFO-1234yf is way more dangerous.
Here's the links: I just checked them in preview. The first one take a moment or two to load.

R-1234yf MSDS

R-152a MSDS

Universal Global Harmonized MSDS Classifications Page 10 and 11 of this PDF are the important ones.

I'm going to follow this thread.

Thanks,
Mark


When R134a was $1.99 on sale at Walmart several years ago, I loaded up. I recently ran out and see that it is up to $11-$15 a can depending on where you buy it.

I now use R152a via duster cans and a side tap. I can usually get these for about $5 a can. It's a straight drop in and completely compatable with PAG oil. Cooling is identical to R134a. I'm not concerned that it is slightly flammable. It is the oil in mist form that creates the bigest danger anyhow. Of all my years of searching the web, I have yet to come across a serious fire by anyone who has used a flammable HC refrigerant which is supposedly much more dangerous than R152a.


If you have a Sam's club membership you can get a 30lb bottle of R134A for $80, roughly $2.67 a lb. Or you can get a case of 12 12oz cans for $48. Still much cheaper than any parts store.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: AdRock
Originally Posted By: hoosierrun
Originally Posted By: jetmech1
Originally Posted By: Shannow
jetmech1, great post, I concur with your assessment.


Thanks. I said I wasn't going to post beyond this, but I'm going to have to break my own rule. Why is important.

I just looked up the MSDS of R-1234yf and R-152a. If I'm reading this right, the German's got this right. It's been a while since I've had HAZMAT training while working for the freight airline, but if I'm reading this right R-1234yf is much more flammable than R-152a. R-1234yf is a Class 1 and R-152a is Class 2. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this assessment, but HFO-1234yf is way more dangerous.
Here's the links: I just checked them in preview. The first one take a moment or two to load.

R-1234yf MSDS

R-152a MSDS

Universal Global Harmonized MSDS Classifications Page 10 and 11 of this PDF are the important ones.

I'm going to follow this thread.

Thanks,
Mark


When R134a was $1.99 on sale at Walmart several years ago, I loaded up. I recently ran out and see that it is up to $11-$15 a can depending on where you buy it.

I now use R152a via duster cans and a side tap. I can usually get these for about $5 a can. It's a straight drop in and completely compatable with PAG oil. Cooling is identical to R134a. I'm not concerned that it is slightly flammable. It is the oil in mist form that creates the bigest danger anyhow. Of all my years of searching the web, I have yet to come across a serious fire by anyone who has used a flammable HC refrigerant which is supposedly much more dangerous than R152a.


If you have a Sam's club membership you can get a 30lb bottle of R134A for $80, roughly $2.67 a lb. Or you can get a case of 12 12oz cans for $48. Still much cheaper than any parts store.


Prices of R134a really dropped the past few weeks (nearing end of AC repair season?). Cases shipped from E-Bay are now running about $50-$52 and that includes shipping and tax. I still see it for $12-$15 a can at AutoZone and other stores. If you really intend on using a lot, the 30# bottles are the way to go. I would never live long enough to use that much.
 
Originally Posted By: hoosierrun
Originally Posted By: jetmech1
Originally Posted By: Shannow
jetmech1, great post, I concur with your assessment.


Thanks. I said I wasn't going to post beyond this, but I'm going to have to break my own rule. Why is important.

I just looked up the MSDS of R-1234yf and R-152a. If I'm reading this right, the German's got this right. It's been a while since I've had HAZMAT training while working for the freight airline, but if I'm reading this right R-1234yf is much more flammable than R-152a. R-1234yf is a Class 1 and R-152a is Class 2. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this assessment, but HFO-1234yf is way more dangerous.
Here's the links: I just checked them in preview. The first one take a moment or two to load.

R-1234yf MSDS

R-152a MSDS

Universal Global Harmonized MSDS Classifications Page 10 and 11 of this PDF are the important ones.

I'm going to follow this thread.

Thanks,
Mark


When R134a was $1.99 on sale at Walmart several years ago, I loaded up. I recently ran out and see that it is up to $11-$15 a can depending on where you buy it.

I now use R152a via duster cans and a side tap. I can usually get these for about $5 a can. It's a straight drop in and completely compatable with PAG oil. Cooling is identical to R134a. I'm not concerned that it is slightly flammable. It is the oil in mist form that creates the bigest danger anyhow. Of all my years of searching the web, I have yet to come across a serious fire by anyone who has used a flammable HC refrigerant which is supposedly much more dangerous than R152a.


It's not common but it does happen. Two people were burnt in a recent HC refrigerant cabin fire in Australia:
http://www.vasa.org.au/perth-truck-hc-explosion-how-it-happened/

There's been some incidents here with mining equipment too. I would only consider flammables in something with the TX valve on the firewall side. Too risky on anything with connections/hoses/tx valves under the dash. A 300g charge is enough to make a stoichiometric (and explosive) mixture in the cabin of an average size car.

r134a is heavily regulated here, impossible to get as a DIYer.
 
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: beechcraftted
OK, so R-12 was banned around 1994, because it damaged the ozone layer and this gave us R-134a by EPA decree. Now the EU is already banning R-134a because of poor global warming properties. Automakers are already being offered tax incentive credits to make the change now, by EPA decree.

Also, my buddy in the auto HVAC business says that although R-134a will not be banned outright, there are going to be HUGE taxes on it. Start stocking up now.

I know, no politics, but I gotta wonder about the $$$$' the EPA has cost all of us.


The EPA has made the car manufactures produce cars that have power, less maintenance and better gas mileage. I thank them for this.


While I will agree that some of the EPA's legislation has helped us, not all of it is good.

Not every benefit cited above is a result of their work.

And they cover a much larger portion of our economy than just cars and trucks, so they affect us all in many distinct areas, both good and bad...
 
Originally Posted By: hoosierrun
Originally Posted By: jetmech1
Originally Posted By: Shannow
jetmech1, great post, I concur with your assessment.


Thanks. I said I wasn't going to post beyond this, but I'm going to have to break my own rule. Why is important.

I just looked up the MSDS of R-1234yf and R-152a. If I'm reading this right, the German's got this right. It's been a while since I've had HAZMAT training while working for the freight airline, but if I'm reading this right R-1234yf is much more flammable than R-152a. R-1234yf is a Class 1 and R-152a is Class 2. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this assessment, but HFO-1234yf is way more dangerous.
Here's the links: I just checked them in preview. The first one take a moment or two to load.

R-1234yf MSDS

R-152a MSDS

Universal Global Harmonized MSDS Classifications Page 10 and 11 of this PDF are the important ones.

I'm going to follow this thread.

Thanks,
Mark


When R134a was $1.99 on sale at Walmart several years ago, I loaded up. I recently ran out and see that it is up to $11-$15 a can depending on where you buy it.

I now use R152a via duster cans and a side tap. I can usually get these for about $5 a can. It's a straight drop in and completely compatable with PAG oil. Cooling is identical to R134a. I'm not concerned that it is slightly flammable. It is the oil in mist form that creates the bigest danger anyhow. Of all my years of searching the web, I have yet to come across a serious fire by anyone who has used a flammable HC refrigerant which is supposedly much more dangerous than R152a.

How do you make sure you are getting clean R152a? Last time I saw cans that didnt have bitterant in them they were on closeout in favor of the other brands with bitterant in them.
I of course, bought all that was left.
 
The drier will probably remove the bitterant. They do a good job of removing the mercaptan stink agent from hydrocarbons.
 
Originally Posted By: spasm3
So how is this new refigerant safer than the propane/isobutane mixes that came out as r-12 replacements?


Sorry, on this one I'm just a messenger, the chemistry zooms far above my head.
 
Originally Posted By: babbittd
Originally Posted By: spasm3
So how is this new refigerant safer than the propane/isobutane mixes that came out as r-12 replacements?


Sorry, on this one I'm just a messenger, the chemistry zooms far above my head.


No problem, i'm just curious as to flammability aspect. Hydrocarbons work well as refrigerants, but are frowned upon due to the volatility.
 
I just heard recently M-B said no to 1234yf, and will continue CO2 AC. Other European manufacturers have followed suit. Apparently in violation of European laws. Big problems in use with 1234yf.

Also, Dupont and Honeywell cited in EU antitrust suit due to 1234yf
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/dfc06f48-592c-11e4-a722-00144feab7de.html

I do not have any links, but have heard that Dupont wants(is) backing out of the partnership with Honeywell for 1234yf production amidst the European manufacturers rejecting the use of 1234yf.
 
MB/Daimler are worried about flammability and HF formation. Meanwhile SAE and most other OEMs insist it's safe after multiple quantitative risk assessments. Remains to be seen how it will play out in the real world. It is definately much harder to ignite than HCs.

Here's a presentation with the results of testing by the German BAM, including a cabin fire test with large refrigerant leak. http://www.sae.org/events/aars/presentations/2010/T7.pdf
Note the frosting of the windows due to HF corrosion! Unfortunately they didn't measure the HF concentrations accurately (>90ppm), but HF is extremely toxic and this level would likely be lethal to anyone inside.

For comparison here's what happens when you ignite a full HC charge inside the cabin:
[URL='http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0K1WPCWm2k']www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0K1WPCWm2k[/url]
This was a mad science experiment by some UNSW engineers, intended to show that such an incident would be survivable. They got off with relatively minor burns. Still not something I'd like to experience, but a similar experiment with r152a or r1234yf would be far worse due to the highly toxic and corrosive combustion products.
 
undertow, I trained under that guy for part of my thermodynamics at UNSW...he's not the crackpot that is pushed by those against his views (not you).

The court case pushed by workcover was pretty [censored], as it should have been, that was no stunt to pull in the workplace.

Given that was an extreme and unusual case...I'm still not scared of HC.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top