Mobil 1 0w-40 OK for Winter in VQ35HR?

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Originally Posted By: Shannow
"Absolute certainty" CATERHAM ?

Big call there...

How so ?

Not really, just calling you out for the second time when you spout some of your totally misleading, unsubstantiated nonsense, something you have a penchant for doing which is my main beef with you.

The only thing we don't precisely know when blending two or more 0W oils or 5W oils etc is what the resultant MRV, CCS, PP etc will be other than it WILL be lower than the heaviest of the blended oils, let alone loose it's winter rating entirely as you have suggested.

Now while it is common sense that if you add a lighter oil to a heavier oil you will make it lighter, if you have any doubt's that this effect still applies at extreme cold temp's just ask any oil formulator.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Now while it is common sense that if you add a lighter oil to a heavier oil you will make it lighter, if you have any doubt's that this effect still applies at extreme cold temp's just ask any oil formulator.

I do recall in discussions with a testing lab director at a major oil company, he noted that there was some outlying strangeness where oil could severely thicken if two particular oils were blended due to additive weirdness. Something like two 5W-30 oils measuring out as 20W-40 because of how the additives didn't play nice with each other. Of course that was years ago, and perhaps these days additive packages are so similar that this is less likely.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Shannow
"Absolute certainty" CATERHAM ?

Big call there...

How so ?

Not really, just calling you out for the second time when you spout some of your totally misleading, unsubstantiated nonsense, something you have a penchant for doing which is my main beef with you.

The only thing we don't precisely know when blending two or more 0W oils or 5W oils etc is what the resultant MRV, CCS, PP etc will be other than it WILL be lower than the heaviest of the blended oils, let alone loose it's winter rating entirely as you have suggested.

Now while it is common sense that if you add a lighter oil to a heavier oil you will make it lighter, if you have any doubt's that this effect still applies at extreme cold temp's just ask any oil formulator.


OK, so what have ALL the oil formulators told you about blending any two off the shelf oils and the end results in the CCS and MRV ?

Your flawed assumption, that I've asked you many many times to demonstrate is that additives behave linearly and synergistically, which your overly simplistic assumption HAS to be based on (otherwsie, it's just more made up science).

Take two fully formulated oils, one having 1000ppm of PPD(a), and the other having 1000ppm of PP(b)...the blend will be 500ppm of PPD(a), and 500ppm of PPD(b).

In order to meet with your assumption, both additives have to behave liearly on the mix of basestocks, and cumulatively to put you back where you assume that you'll be with your "common sense".

again, please provide EVIDENCE that backs up your assumption.

When you asked ALL the oil blenders about mixing, what EXACTLY did they tell you about the W rating of any OTC oil blended with any other ?

"Compatible" ?

That doesn't mean that two disparate 0Ws gives you a 0W, it means that neither oil split, clouded, or produced precipitates when mixed with any of 6 ASTM reference oils, when cooled to their combined Pour point (*), heated, cooled to the pour point, and returned to room temperature.

(*) the pour point is that measured with the blend of finished oil and reference oil, the ASTM is not a PPD test per se.

again CATERHAM, please back up what you are saying with some evidence, rather than your usual "self evident", "common sense", "obvious" statements that have nothing scientific about them.

Conversations that I've had with blenders are
* blends are compatible (see last few paras, that's not a guarantee of any standard being met other than the salad dressing test);
* stick withing the "family" if you want to play viscosity engineer (e.g advice from Mobil was to stay within the M1 range, Penrite was to stay within the "R" range, the semi synthetic diesel range, or whatever range I was playing with, and not to cross ranges, as the add packs were not optimal out there).

(The advice that I've received seems self evident, implicitly obvious, and just plain common sense...doesn't it to you ?
 
I guess that would mean that we don't have a laboratory in Ontario
that could heat the oil to 150C, test the HTHS, take the oil up to it's
flash point, back down to -54C to check it's pour point,
back up to -40C and -35C against the 0W requirement,

Then do our "salad dressing" test.

All quite contrary.

Yes, quite contrary indeed.
 
Originally Posted By: used_0il
I guess that would mean that we don't have a laboratory in Ontario
that could heat the oil to 150C, test the HTHS, take the oil up to it's
flash point, back down to -54C to check it's pour point,
back up to -40C and -35C against the 0W requirement,

Then do our "salad dressing" test.

All quite contrary.

Yes, quite contrary indeed.


The problem is that people in this thread and others consistently make statements without posting the data, test method and equipment used.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Shannow
"Absolute certainty" CATERHAM ?

Big call there...

How so ?

Not really, just calling you out for the second time when you spout some of your totally misleading, unsubstantiated nonsense, something you have a penchant for doing which is my main beef with you.

The only thing we don't precisely know when blending two or more 0W oils or 5W oils etc is what the resultant MRV, CCS, PP etc will be other than it WILL be lower than the heaviest of the blended oils, let alone loose it's winter rating entirely as you have suggested.

Now while it is common sense that if you add a lighter oil to a heavier oil you will make it lighter, if you have any doubt's that this effect still applies at extreme cold temp's just ask any oil formulator.


OK, so what have ALL the oil formulators told you about blending any two off the shelf oils and the end results in the CCS and MRV ?

Your flawed assumption, that I've asked you many many times to demonstrate is that additives behave linearly and synergistically, which your overly simplistic assumption HAS to be based on (otherwsie, it's just more made up science).

Take two fully formulated oils, one having 1000ppm of PPD(a), and the other having 1000ppm of PP(b)...the blend will be 500ppm of PPD(a), and 500ppm of PPD(b).

In order to meet with your assumption, both additives have to behave liearly on the mix of basestocks, and cumulatively to put you back where you assume that you'll be with your "common sense".

again, please provide EVIDENCE that backs up your assumption.

When you asked ALL the oil blenders about mixing, what EXACTLY did they tell you about the W rating of any OTC oil blended with any other ?

"Compatible" ?

That doesn't mean that two disparate 0Ws gives you a 0W, it means that neither oil split, clouded, or produced precipitates when mixed with any of 6 ASTM reference oils, when cooled to their combined Pour point (*), heated, cooled to the pour point, and returned to room temperature.

(*) the pour point is that measured with the blend of finished oil and reference oil, the ASTM is not a PPD test per se.

again CATERHAM, please back up what you are saying with some evidence, rather than your usual "self evident", "common sense", "obvious" statements that have nothing scientific about them.

Conversations that I've had with blenders are
* blends are compatible (see last few paras, that's not a guarantee of any standard being met other than the salad dressing test);
* stick withing the "family" if you want to play viscosity engineer (e.g advice from Mobil was to stay within the M1 range, Penrite was to stay within the "R" range, the semi synthetic diesel range, or whatever range I was playing with, and not to cross ranges, as the add packs were not optimal out there).

(The advice that I've received seems self evident, implicitly obvious, and just plain common sense...doesn't it to you ?

No you're the one with the ridiculous premise.
Not one oil company formulator or auto company considers it an issue. In fact the API even allows a formulator to interchange base oils up to 30% if GP III or GP IV base oils are used without the need to to retest.

So you come up with just one example of two API or ACEA oils that if mixed will loose their 0W rating.
With the hundreds of motor oils available it shouldn't be hard to find one oil that will loose it's 0W rating if mixed if your argument has the slightest bit of credibility.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
No you're the one with the ridiculous premise.
Not one oil company formulator or auto company considers it an issue. In fact the API even allows a formulator to interchange base oils up to 30% if GP III or GP IV base oils are used without the need to to retest.

So you come up with just one example of two API or ACEA oils that if mixed will loose their 0W rating.
With the hundreds of motor oils available it shouldn't be hard to find one oil that will loose it's 0W rating if mixed if your argument has the slightest bit of credibility.


http://papers.sae.org/2000-01-2942/

Quote:
A significant deterioration in low temperature pumpability properties (as measured by the mini-rotary viscometer; MRV) was observed in certain commercial-quality engine oils in a taxi field test program. A detailed investigation demonstrated that contamination by carry-over of the factory fill oil in combination with oil aging was the cause of the marked deterioration in low-temperature pumpability properties; no evidence of new oil incompatibility was observed using industry-standard test procedures. A subsequent investigation identified a number of commercial ILSAC GF-2 quality engine oils which also caused large MRV viscosity increases when added in concentrations as low as 1 wt% to used engine oils. A root-cause evaluation established that low concentrations of certain viscosity index improvers caused large MRV viscosity increases when added to used oils.


SAE Paper - Effect of Viscosity Modifiers

SAE Paper - ageing mechanism on top teir oils

STLE paper on VMs (10W30 oils) and low temperature additive issues.

ASTM D6922 Discussion - what it really tests, not what one would "feel" it tests for
 
We will have to add sonic shear to the post blend tests
just to make sure that we did not stumble upon fusion.

Then weigh the blend to see if the molecules are repelling
each other or dancing together.
 
And what did they say in the movie "Casino"?

Keep them playing and the house will eventually
take their money.

Once you know what the north end of a south bound
horse looks like, you can pass on the sniff-test.
 
Originally Posted By: cutlassvillager
Thanks everyone. I will probably run the 0w-40 then and possibly mix in some 0w-20. I was thinking of running the 40wt as it sounds like this motor tends to shear oil quickly....and it does make thing easier having 1 oil for 2 cars. Especially since I just took advantage of the M1 rebate and bought 10 quarts of 0w-40 from WalMart.


Wish you knew the M1 rebate was maximum 2 per household, unless you have 5 addresses.
 
You shouldn't have any issues. Most people here in W. Michigan just use whatever bulk oil the dealership uses and never have an issue in our winters. I've used 5w-30 in -25F with no problems starting, also.
 
This was getting to be my favorite thread. What happened?

When my parents played bridge, I didn't have to look at my father's
hand to know what he was holding, because he would roll his eyes
when my mother's opening lead was totally daft.

Now of course, the opposition knew as well.

In bridge you can do everything but show your partner your hand.

No kicking under the table, winks, ear tugging, cleaning your glasses
(or rolling your eyes) allowed.

I knew they weren't cheating because I would listen about it for the next week
and I was in the same room.

In a Casino it would be harder to catch the house cheating than the other way around.

From the above thread can you guess what CATREHAM had in his hand?

How many CEs in one room to ruin a party?

I have a "Richard Pryor" understanding of chemical engineering.

Look at what happened to him when he tried to
mix homogenized milk with 2%.

What you end up with is not always the sum of it's parts.
 
Then I thought CATERMAN could be bluffing all along.

Maybe he has nothing in his hand.

Playing for matchsticks is one thing.

But if the loser had to close his eyes and stand behind a gelding that just came home from the vet..... quite another.
 
Originally Posted By: used_0il

I have a "Richard Pryor" understanding of chemical engineering.





There are times where I would tend to agree.
 
I filled up the engine with 5 quarts of the 0w-40 last night. So far so good. I am planning to get a UOA out of curiosity.

The rebate form I had listed 2x5qt ($12 each) as an option.
 
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