New Subaru BRZ--going to the track

[geeman789]

I would run a stout Euro 5w30, like M1 ESP, or AMSOIL HDD 5w30 etc.

And TRIPLE check insurance coverage... racetracks and street driven cars are not a good combo in the eyes of the insurances co's...!

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: bluesubie
OP - I believe you're on FT86club. Try to find the uoa on Motul 5W-30 300V by AZP Installs. He did a good job of shearing that oil during track conditions and 300V is a very stout oil.



That's a scary bit of information. Makes me think that AMSoil HDD or Joe Gibbs LS30 would be more appropriate than a light 30. They are both very shear resistant.

 

[bmrlvr]

Originally Posted By: bluesubie
tdpark -Some dealers will just look at the tires, or other items, and deny a Powertrain warranty claim based on the fact that the car looks like it was subjected to abuse or track driving. I know dealers have pics from SoA on commonly abused items.

As far as the owners manual goes:

Quote:
The 20 in 0W-20 indicates the viscosity characteristic of the oil when
the oil is at high temperature. An oil with a higher viscosity (one with a
higher value) may be better suited if the vehicle is operated at high
speeds, or under extreme load conditions.


OP - I believe you're on FT86club. Try to find the uoa on Motul 5W-30 300V by AZP Installs. He did a good job of shearing that oil during track conditions and 300V is a very stout oil. He also posted his oil temps.

His car is pretty much a race car though (but no forced induction and stock internals) and he's also a NASA Northeast instructor, so his car gets a good thrashing at the track. It probably depends on what your track time is like.

One track day is probably fine on the factory fill (and I think you've received feedback from others that have done this), but I would at least do a mix of M1 0W-20 (or TGMO 0W-20) and M1 0W-40.

-Dennis




Since I have a MityVac, why can't I drain about 2 quarts of the factory fill and replace with 2 quarts of M1 0w-40? Then after the event, I do a full change back to 0w-20.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: tdpark
I remember a few years back- I think Subaru rejected warranty claims because they found proof that the people took their cars to the track or off road and blew engines and what not.


Scooby (WRX/STI), Mitsu (Evos), AND Nissan (new GTRs) ALL did the above, despite this type of use being these cars' reason for existence.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: bluesubie
Try to find the uoa on Motul 5W-30 300V by AZP Installs. He did a good job of shearing that oil during track conditions and 300V is a very stout oil. He also posted his oil temps.


Did he ever try the Trophy 300V 0W-40, or did he give up on Motul after shearing down their 5W-30??

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: bmrlvr

Since I have a MityVac, why can't I drain about 2 quarts of the factory fill and replace with 2 quarts of M1 0w-40? Then after the event, I do a full change back to 0w-20.


You certainly could do that. However, the difference in viscosity you will achieve does not seem to be worth the effort. I'd go with a full 0W-40 oil change, as a minimum. Not to mention, it's very likely that the two oils have different chemistries. If so, maybe you are not achieving the "best of both worlds". But in fact, diluting each.

0W-20
cSt @ 40ºC 44.8
cSt @ 100ºC 8.7
HTHS @150C 2.7 (ugh)(very low)

0W-40
cSt @ 40ºC 75
cSt @ 100ºC 13.5 (you will be above this temperature, but that is still a lower viscosity than other 40 oils such as M1 TDT which is 14.5)
HTHS @ 150C 3.8 (Far better, and in the normal range)(especially knowing that the oil temp will be above 100C and below 150C)

 

[Shannow]

Given that Subaru have
* decided on the 0W20 lubricant;
* then very helpfully decided to neuter the engine before the lubricant can cause trouble while within it's performance envelope.

You are in a little bit of trouble when tracking said engine.

Short, as CATERHAM has offered, of redesigning the lubrication system, which isn't always the best idea when under warranty.

Problem then is that if you increase the viscosity, you increase the lubricant operating temperatures, and then will hit the neuter point even earlier.

Throw some examples into the calculator (you are a bit stuck for exact bearing dimensions, but can draw some interesting results.
http://www.tribology-abc.com/calculators/c9_3.htm

Use 40mm diameter, 20mm length, 0.04mm clearance, 6,000RPM, and viscosities (HTHS) of 2.7 (0W20) and 3.8 (0W40).

Temperature rise across the bearing is calculated at 17.9k in the former, and 25.1K in the latter...so the thicker will have a frictional rise of around 7C more than the 20...you will hit the neutering temperature quicker with the 0W40, even 'though you will have a massive (oodles) greater film thickness (more protection) on the 40 than the 20 at that point.

BTW, the 40 will cost you around 45W (less than a low beam filament) per bearing under those circumstances...a full half a horsepower on the crank and mains...not sure how many percentage points that is on the engine in question.


So you have a conundrum.

The 20 ISN'T designed for ultimate protection, as evidenced by the fact that the engine in stock form can outrun it and requires Subaru to limit power output times duration to limit damage.

A thicker oil will trigger this protection system earlier.

Short of redesigning your oiling system, I'd be inclined to run thicker stuff, and see if the temperature limits DO kick in in your usage and review from there.

BTW, the insurance comapanies in Oz send "field operatives" to car shows and races. Car shows, they check the actual condition of the cars that are there (can quote on registration numbers if they have pics), and to see who's racing, and match damage and deny claims.

 

[bluesubie]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: bluesubie
OP - I believe you're on FT86club. Try to find the uoa on Motul 5W-30 300V by AZP Installs. He did a good job of shearing that oil during track conditions and 300V is a very stout oil.



That's a scary bit of information. Makes me think that AMSoil HDD or Joe Gibbs LS30 would be more appropriate than a light 30. They are both very shear resistant.


I believe he is sticking with 300V 5W-30 since his shop sells Motul. His track temps are 260-275F here in the Northeast and he was supposed to have installed a WRX oil cooler by now.

Someone else on FT86 club posted some Red Line 0W-20 uoa's from a supercharged FR-S and the oil did well.

-Dennis

 

[kyoo]

don't thicker oils run hotter?

i believe this is a well tested engine, didnt they run it for like 100,000 hrs at 7k rpms or something crazy liek that at their testing facility? I'd run 0w20. flush before and after. do a uoa just to test

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: bluesubie
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: bluesubie
OP - I believe you're on FT86club. Try to find the uoa on Motul 5W-30 300V by AZP Installs. He did a good job of shearing that oil during track conditions and 300V is a very stout oil.



That's a scary bit of information. Makes me think that AMSoil HDD or Joe Gibbs LS30 would be more appropriate than a light 30. They are both very shear resistant.


Someone else on FT86 club posted some Red Line 0W-20 uoa's from a supercharged FR-S and the oil did well.

-Dennis



Nice, chalk up one for Red Line! I thought of suggesting RL, but since the OP's car is under warranty, I held off. Red Line would be good in that application, except none of their oils are API or ILSAC certified.

 

[bluesubie]

I just looked for the Red Line 0W-20 user (Dezoris on FT86club) and his track temps were up to 260F with an oil cooler.

The 86 has definitely had it's share of failures when pushed to the limit. Like the WRX, people need to remember that they're not getting a "race car" from the factory. Here's a recent failure:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76884

OP - If you haven't already done so, you should spend some time reading in the Track forum at FT86club.

-Dennis

 

[bmrlvr]

At the risk of asking a dumb question, how are people able to determine the oil temperature since the car does not have an oil temperature gauge?

 

[bluesubie]

Aftermarket temp gauge.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: bmrlvr
At the risk of asking a dumb question, how are people able to determine the oil temperature since the car does not have an oil temperature gauge?


If Toyota has a derate engine protection algorithm based on oil temperature, there must be a temperature sensor in there somewhere. Maybe the instrument panel doesn't have a gauge for it, but an OBD reader would be able to read it.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
For the same reasons it's not necessary to run anything heavier that the spec' 5W-20 in Mustang GT when tracked,,,


Possibly a poor example choice, but in the new 5.0 Mustang, it specifically calls for 5W-50 oil in the "track pack" car. Which is the one you should purchase "IF" you plan on doing track days. The engine is NOT different in any way, than the normal GT, 5.0. Only the intended use.

Also, locally at PBIR (used to be Moroso track) I'm a regular there as I live 3 miles from the track and there is literally nothing between the track and my house. It's a nearly universal issue with road race cars, thin oils and spun bearings.

No it's a perfectly fine example.
Many Mustang GT owners without the "track pack option" do take part in track day events and Ford advises it is NOT necessary or even recommended to run anything heavier than the spec' 5W-20.
If the oil temp's do get too high the electronic safeties will kick before anything harmful happens. And it should be noted that the safety management systems are not easily triggered as one member mentioned he was not able to do so when he tracked his Mustang GT.
Ford goes on to say, if the safety management systems are triggered too frequently the solution is to install the optional oil cooler.

The track-pack option for which the 5W-50 grade is specified raises the maximum allowable oil temp's before the electronic safeties will kick in.

 

[Cujet]

Again, I disagree. Electronic safeties are wonderful. However, to rely on them to protect the engine on the track, at high oil temps makes little sense. A simple downshift can load bearings beyond the oil's load carrying capacity.

Put another way, rev and torque limiting programming don't protect against a downshift to redline.

 

[Shannow]

Cujet, I don't think any lubrication system that can be outdriven by a stock engine within it's normal tune is well designed.

 

[Nate1979]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
Again, I disagree. Electronic safeties are wonderful. However, to rely on them to protect the engine on the track, at high oil temps makes little sense. A simple downshift can load bearings beyond the oil's load carrying capacity.

Put another way, rev and torque limiting programming don't protect against a downshift to redline.


Don't worry man. The internet engineers who are privy to all of the design specs and test data for the engine says it is OK. What can go wrong?

 

[Cujet]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ENbuMAgZnE (start watching at about 5:40 for the good stuff)

Note: BMW had a rash of connecting rod failures. Not due to poor bearing material, or poor oiling. But due to actual loads on the bearings exceeding the bearings and oil's capacity (very high RPM) . 10W-60 is required in these engines.

There are some C7 Corvette LT1 engines giving up also. Speculation is that there is debris in the oil system. I can accept that, however, that does not seem to be the only cause. One thing seems clear, they are failing on track days. One report had 7 stock C7 vettes at a track day, 2 of them suffered rod bearing failures.

The Mustang 5.0 Track Pack and Boss require 5W-50. Heck, even the Ford engineer involved in the Coyote engine's testing stated that 5W-20 was for CAFE reasons and not for longevity.

All that aside, if you do track your car with 20 vis oil, do all of us a favor and perform a Used Oil Analysis of the oil used at the track. While UOA results are not perfect, it may help you choose the right oil. My best guess (based on 35 years of track day experience) is that you will see higher wear with thin oils at track days.

 

[dailydriver]

^^^If I were going to steadily track a Vette, with sticky tires, it would have a built engine and an aftermarket, multi-stage dry sump system on it.