Just as another data point, because of the study that was done recently (by the FBI maybe?), the Fayetteville, NC, police department is switching from .40S&W to 9mm. I don't know if other North Carolina departments have switched or plan to switch, but Fayetteville apparently is.
Fayetteville, NC, PD switching to 9mm
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Many police departments have made the same conclusion and lots of departments are switching back to 9mm.
Why the switch back?
Originally Posted By: totegoat
What brand 9mm pistol will they be buying?
I don't know. I think their choices today are Glock 22, M&P 40, and Sig something. I imagine the choices with 9mm will be the 9mm versions of those guns...the Glock 17, M&P 9, and Sig something.
Originally Posted By: Bottom_Feeder
Why the switch back?
I think the study cited better accuracy with 9mm, more capacity with 9mm, and a lessening of the difference in "hit power" between 9mm and .40S&W. I could be paraphrasing it wrong, but that's what I remember.
What brand 9mm pistol will they be buying?
I don't know. I think their choices today are Glock 22, M&P 40, and Sig something. I imagine the choices with 9mm will be the 9mm versions of those guns...the Glock 17, M&P 9, and Sig something.
Originally Posted By: Bottom_Feeder
Why the switch back?
I think the study cited better accuracy with 9mm, more capacity with 9mm, and a lessening of the difference in "hit power" between 9mm and .40S&W. I could be paraphrasing it wrong, but that's what I remember.
Administrators are in charge. The numbers will back them up what ever their decision might be. Today the numbers are the facts, you just assemble the numbers the way you like and now you will be backed up by the facts. The most important aspect of this is that they are in charge. In fact they are putting lipstick on a pig. The truth is that training and discipline are the most important factors, not the caliber of the ammunition. It's easier to pick a standard caliber than it is to train an officer in marksmanship, discipline and field skills and follow up with honest investigations when it comes to the use of force. Many of the modern pistol calibers are very effective when accurately placed and totally ineffective in the hands of an officer without proper training. Training is costly and time consuming and is a big hit on the budget. Choosing a caliber is and touting the numbers is the easy way out. Choosing the caliber and being done with the issue leaves the administrators room in the budget to focus on issues important to them. After all they don't walk in harm's way.
Glock 22 is a .40S&W, I have a 22RTF2.
One of my friends that is a deputy with the Sheriff's Department here convinced someone at his department to let him field test .357Sig. He did research and found a department in Texas that used it who claimed "Anyone we shot with it died, we like it." that was enough real world info to make his case.
One of my friends that is a deputy with the Sheriff's Department here convinced someone at his department to let him field test .357Sig. He did research and found a department in Texas that used it who claimed "Anyone we shot with it died, we like it." that was enough real world info to make his case.
It would make perfect sense too me,
-Higher cap mag. capability
-A cheaper round
-A NATO round (smart in terms of overall availability and always will be)
-A round that has a higher muzzle velocity which makes it more accurate a "X" distance (flatter longer).
I carry a 45 usually, but I don't buy into this "the perp. can get up and run away after being hit by a 9mm" thats [censored] for "lack of training".
-Higher cap mag. capability
-A cheaper round
-A NATO round (smart in terms of overall availability and always will be)
-A round that has a higher muzzle velocity which makes it more accurate a "X" distance (flatter longer).
I carry a 45 usually, but I don't buy into this "the perp. can get up and run away after being hit by a 9mm" thats [censored] for "lack of training".
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
Glock 22 is a .40S&W, I have a 22RTF2.
One of my friends that is a deputy with the Sheriff's Department here convinced someone at his department to let him field test .357Sig. He did research and found a department in Texas that used it who claimed "Anyone we shot with it died, we like it." that was enough real world info to make his case.
Our conservation officer's carry GLOCK's chambered in 357sig, I love that round, it shoots great !
Glock 22 is a .40S&W, I have a 22RTF2.
One of my friends that is a deputy with the Sheriff's Department here convinced someone at his department to let him field test .357Sig. He did research and found a department in Texas that used it who claimed "Anyone we shot with it died, we like it." that was enough real world info to make his case.
Our conservation officer's carry GLOCK's chambered in 357sig, I love that round, it shoots great !
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357Sig is an excellent round. Data from New Mexico Highway Patrol shows it to be a solid man stopper. They have some data but overall it's cost prohibitive and the data is statistically insignificant when compared to the large number of shooting involving the traditional 9mm, 40, and 45ACP.
Moving from a 40 to a 9mm in the cop world has a lot to do with:
1) Many small stature male and many females do not like and do not shoot the snappy 40 very well. Most 45ACP offerings are either too large in the grip (double stack) or thin (1911 style) and suffer from a lower round capacity. Not much difference between 40 & 9 capacity wise; most are 17 for 9mm and 15 for 40 x's 3 magazines 6 extra shots....
2) Big one! 40 runs a higher expense per 1k rounds than 9mm in the same type of bullet. And most of the SD bullets today are very well engineered with very close killing percentages.
3) Often times the gun manufacturers come a knocking offering a very sweet deal for the conversions.....especially if they are trying to get a competitors gun off the hip of that particular dept. Our last one, we are only 82 guns, cost me $125 per gun, with old trade in, and that included refresher armorer classes. That was for Glock to keep us and NOT move to S&W M&P. And we are small with zero to offer these guys. Imagine what they would do for a larger dept?
I am guessing it falls into a combo of the above or at least 1 of those reasons listed. But end of day, with Gov't you just can't tell for sure. Could all be because 1 person whined enough!
Moving from a 40 to a 9mm in the cop world has a lot to do with:
1) Many small stature male and many females do not like and do not shoot the snappy 40 very well. Most 45ACP offerings are either too large in the grip (double stack) or thin (1911 style) and suffer from a lower round capacity. Not much difference between 40 & 9 capacity wise; most are 17 for 9mm and 15 for 40 x's 3 magazines 6 extra shots....
2) Big one! 40 runs a higher expense per 1k rounds than 9mm in the same type of bullet. And most of the SD bullets today are very well engineered with very close killing percentages.
3) Often times the gun manufacturers come a knocking offering a very sweet deal for the conversions.....especially if they are trying to get a competitors gun off the hip of that particular dept. Our last one, we are only 82 guns, cost me $125 per gun, with old trade in, and that included refresher armorer classes. That was for Glock to keep us and NOT move to S&W M&P. And we are small with zero to offer these guys. Imagine what they would do for a larger dept?
I am guessing it falls into a combo of the above or at least 1 of those reasons listed. But end of day, with Gov't you just can't tell for sure. Could all be because 1 person whined enough!
9mm is just fine. I have seen three people shot with it. Two were dead. One thought he was going to die. Lack of stopping power is a PISTOL problem, not really a caliber problem with any realistic caliber and ammo. 9mm is becoming popular again because 1.)people can shoot it better, faster with the same amount of training. 2.) Misses are liabilities. and 3.) People are realizing that when people get shot with any meaningful caliber, most folks don't walk it off, and the ones that do would have taken a hit from a .40 or .45 in a similar fashion, because the difference in energy and diameter hole between most major pistol calibers are minimal. I carry either a .45 or 9mm, and don't really care either way. When I put rounds into people, good things happen.
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
Glock 22 is a .40S&W, I have a 22RTF2.
One of my friends that is a deputy with the Sheriff's Department here convinced someone at his department to let him field test .357Sig. He did research and found a department in Texas that used it who claimed "Anyone we shot with it died, we like it." that was enough real world info to make his case.
I would hope no Cop would EVER in their career have to shoot anyone. That's just small man locker room talk.
Glock 22 is a .40S&W, I have a 22RTF2.
One of my friends that is a deputy with the Sheriff's Department here convinced someone at his department to let him field test .357Sig. He did research and found a department in Texas that used it who claimed "Anyone we shot with it died, we like it." that was enough real world info to make his case.
I would hope no Cop would EVER in their career have to shoot anyone. That's just small man locker room talk.
Originally Posted By: 95busa
When I put rounds into people, good things happen.
Well, to YOU, maybe... LOL
When I put rounds into people, good things happen.
Well, to YOU, maybe... LOL
I have been on our dept 24 years now, and have carried a .40 almost since it's inception, first one of the Smith offerings and then a G22 since 2000. We average about 6-10 officer involved shootings a year here. It has been my observation we are no more deadly with the .40 than we used to be with the old .38's, in fact it seems even less so. But my guess would be that is due to improved accuracy with the .38's, it was always in the back of an officer's mind he didn't have a lot of rounds (we used to carry a .38 with one, yes one speed loader that was it).
I shoot the .40 very well but I would carry a 9 without a second thought as to it's effectiveness. And as mentioned, in all honesty a 9 would be a better choice for a lot of our female officers or officers who have little to no prior experience with firearms.
I shoot the .40 very well but I would carry a 9 without a second thought as to it's effectiveness. And as mentioned, in all honesty a 9 would be a better choice for a lot of our female officers or officers who have little to no prior experience with firearms.
I have gone on record as a fan of the .40. It's what I was issued and what I carry (H&K USP compact, LEM model).
Now, I wouldn't be so blind as to think that the .40 would be the best choice for everyone. Were I to choose for a department, round effectiveness, training cost, demonstrated departmental accuracy and other factors would be considered and the 9mm is a compelling case in several of those factors.
Interestingly, the Norfolk, VA PD has just announced that it is trading in its Glock 17 (9mm) for the Glock Gen 4 21SF, a .45 ACP. Upping the caliber considerably...while losing only 4 rounds of capacity.
It's thought by many that a recent shooting, in which the bad guy took 5 rounds to center mass and kept fighting, influenced the decision. The Norfolk PD SWAT has had the G21 for a while. I heard this from a Norfolk Cop last year, but this story seems to verify what he was saying:
http://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2014...folk-pd-glock-3
Now, I wouldn't be so blind as to think that the .40 would be the best choice for everyone. Were I to choose for a department, round effectiveness, training cost, demonstrated departmental accuracy and other factors would be considered and the 9mm is a compelling case in several of those factors.
Interestingly, the Norfolk, VA PD has just announced that it is trading in its Glock 17 (9mm) for the Glock Gen 4 21SF, a .45 ACP. Upping the caliber considerably...while losing only 4 rounds of capacity.
It's thought by many that a recent shooting, in which the bad guy took 5 rounds to center mass and kept fighting, influenced the decision. The Norfolk PD SWAT has had the G21 for a while. I heard this from a Norfolk Cop last year, but this story seems to verify what he was saying:
http://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2014...folk-pd-glock-3
If I could carry any round on duty, it would be the 357 Sig out of the Glock 31. That round has a lot of good characteristics of a LEO duty round. My second choice would be 9mm, followed distantly by .40 or .45.
On duty I've been issued a Glock 21 .45ACP with Speer 200+P Gold Dots and a Sig P226 9MM with Speer 124+P Gold Dots. I liked both of them and found both to be dependable, with a slight preference to the Glock since it is lighter and I am a Glock armorer.
On duty I've been issued a Glock 21 .45ACP with Speer 200+P Gold Dots and a Sig P226 9MM with Speer 124+P Gold Dots. I liked both of them and found both to be dependable, with a slight preference to the Glock since it is lighter and I am a Glock armorer.
+1 ...You are spot on . When I did my research between 9mm and 40 S&W I pretty much ended my search once I read what the NYPD (USA's largest city police force) had settled on : Glock 19 mid - size using Speer Gold Dot 124gr. +P loads . What a fantastic combination ...It all boils down to max number of *rounds on center mass in the shortest time possible (*rounds must be 300ft.lbs of energy or greater at the end of barrel to qualify) . The .40 S&W , .45ACP and .357 Sig all pose no concern to me regarding shooting comfort - however I can train more cost effectively using 9mm thus the reason for my personal decision on the subject .
Originally Posted By: BISCUT
357Sig is an excellent round. Data from New Mexico Highway Patrol shows it to be a solid man stopper. They have some data but overall it's cost prohibitive and the data is statistically insignificant when compared to the large number of shooting involving the traditional 9mm, 40, and 45ACP.
Moving from a 40 to a 9mm in the cop world has a lot to do with:
1) Many small stature male and many females do not like and do not shoot the snappy 40 very well. Most 45ACP offerings are either too large in the grip (double stack) or thin (1911 style) and suffer from a lower round capacity. Not much difference between 40 & 9 capacity wise; most are 17 for 9mm and 15 for 40 x's 3 magazines 6 extra shots....
2) Big one! 40 runs a higher expense per 1k rounds than 9mm in the same type of bullet. And most of the SD bullets today are very well engineered with very close killing percentages.
3) Often times the gun manufacturers come a knocking offering a very sweet deal for the conversions.....especially if they are trying to get a competitors gun off the hip of that particular dept. Our last one, we are only 82 guns, cost me $125 per gun, with old trade in, and that included refresher armorer classes. That was for Glock to keep us and NOT move to S&W M&P. And we are small with zero to offer these guys. Imagine what they would do for a larger dept?
I am guessing it falls into a combo of the above or at least 1 of those reasons listed. But end of day, with Gov't you just can't tell for sure. Could all be because 1 person whined enough!
Originally Posted By: BISCUT
357Sig is an excellent round. Data from New Mexico Highway Patrol shows it to be a solid man stopper. They have some data but overall it's cost prohibitive and the data is statistically insignificant when compared to the large number of shooting involving the traditional 9mm, 40, and 45ACP.
Moving from a 40 to a 9mm in the cop world has a lot to do with:
1) Many small stature male and many females do not like and do not shoot the snappy 40 very well. Most 45ACP offerings are either too large in the grip (double stack) or thin (1911 style) and suffer from a lower round capacity. Not much difference between 40 & 9 capacity wise; most are 17 for 9mm and 15 for 40 x's 3 magazines 6 extra shots....
2) Big one! 40 runs a higher expense per 1k rounds than 9mm in the same type of bullet. And most of the SD bullets today are very well engineered with very close killing percentages.
3) Often times the gun manufacturers come a knocking offering a very sweet deal for the conversions.....especially if they are trying to get a competitors gun off the hip of that particular dept. Our last one, we are only 82 guns, cost me $125 per gun, with old trade in, and that included refresher armorer classes. That was for Glock to keep us and NOT move to S&W M&P. And we are small with zero to offer these guys. Imagine what they would do for a larger dept?
I am guessing it falls into a combo of the above or at least 1 of those reasons listed. But end of day, with Gov't you just can't tell for sure. Could all be because 1 person whined enough!
dnewton3
Staff member
This topic is, not unexpectedly, somewhat able to be attributed to the topic of ROI. And if you know me, I'm all about the ROI.
A few decades ago, there was a performance difference between 9mm and .40 and .45. Now the technology of the round performance has pretty much closed that gap. The overall data from macro market analysis can be found in the FBI data sets; they are the main repository for that kind of info. You can look at individual departments, but most "average" sized departments really don't have many shootings at all. We have had two in the last decade; the suspects died; we use 9mm.
When performance is reasonably assured, you can turn to other topics to be the "tie breaker". Things like round count, officer comfort with the weapon, and COST of ammo (a big concern for any department).
Most everyone here has contributed good points in consideration of this topic. And they all point to this; ROI. The ROI is now about things OTHER than round performance, because that gap is nearly non-existent now.
Sound familiar? The gap between dinos and syns has closed to a point that in "statistically normal" use, you'll never know the difference. So cost and other outside considerations can now be a reason to shift the ROI.
Same goes for ammo today. Statistically you're not going to see any significant performance differnce, so the departments are now looking at other criteria for the decision points.
A few decades ago, there was a performance difference between 9mm and .40 and .45. Now the technology of the round performance has pretty much closed that gap. The overall data from macro market analysis can be found in the FBI data sets; they are the main repository for that kind of info. You can look at individual departments, but most "average" sized departments really don't have many shootings at all. We have had two in the last decade; the suspects died; we use 9mm.
When performance is reasonably assured, you can turn to other topics to be the "tie breaker". Things like round count, officer comfort with the weapon, and COST of ammo (a big concern for any department).
Most everyone here has contributed good points in consideration of this topic. And they all point to this; ROI. The ROI is now about things OTHER than round performance, because that gap is nearly non-existent now.
Sound familiar? The gap between dinos and syns has closed to a point that in "statistically normal" use, you'll never know the difference. So cost and other outside considerations can now be a reason to shift the ROI.
Same goes for ammo today. Statistically you're not going to see any significant performance differnce, so the departments are now looking at other criteria for the decision points.
ROI is precisely why I find the Norfolk PD's decision interesting.
What's the ROI? It's not cheaper ammo, greater capacity, better marksmanship or any of the other benefits of 9mm. It's a deliberate shift away from a 9mm Glock to a .45 ACP Glock. The Gen 4 mitigates some of the negatives (grip size, recoil, etc.) with improved ergonomics, but it seems clear to me that preponderance of the decision rested with better individual round performance...
What's the ROI? It's not cheaper ammo, greater capacity, better marksmanship or any of the other benefits of 9mm. It's a deliberate shift away from a 9mm Glock to a .45 ACP Glock. The Gen 4 mitigates some of the negatives (grip size, recoil, etc.) with improved ergonomics, but it seems clear to me that preponderance of the decision rested with better individual round performance...
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