FWIW I have not seen any issues with the EcoBoost engines in my shop that is related to the Direct Injection or the "servicing" of said injection systems.
Warning To All Ford Ecoboost Owners
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I am sure low quality gas does not help.
Originally Posted By: Mykl
Originally Posted By: VNTS
So every 25K miles you get to shell out 600$??? No thanks.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Even every 50K miles no thanks.
My direct injected engine has 85k miles on it and the valves haven't been cleaned. It still gets higher than the rated fuel economy and still spins the tires in second gear at full throttle, occasionally third as well... if it's really cold outside.
MCompact's direct injected engine has 145k miles on it and in another thread I believe he's stated that his engine hasn't required cleaning either. (*EDIT* - nevermind, he said it in this thread too)
The reason you may think it needs to be done so frequently is because somebody opened theirs up at that point because they felt like it, took pictures, and posted it on the internet. Just because it looks gross doesn't mean you've lost any power or efficiency, and it doesn't mean you needed to take it apart to clean it.
There's no reason to be "proactive" here. Just drive the car until it misfires or the check engine light comes on, then drive it somewhere to get the valves cleaned (or buy a six pack and do it in your own garage). It's not the end of the world.
I hear ya, but I'll still pass for now. I have a few friends who service them at dealerships and told me they're seen problems. Trav is also very well versed and shares a similar POV. Then you have these threads that keep popping up. The technology is improving, but IMO and the opinion of professionals who service them the tech isn't quite there yet.
Originally Posted By: VNTS
So every 25K miles you get to shell out 600$??? No thanks.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Even every 50K miles no thanks.
My direct injected engine has 85k miles on it and the valves haven't been cleaned. It still gets higher than the rated fuel economy and still spins the tires in second gear at full throttle, occasionally third as well... if it's really cold outside.
MCompact's direct injected engine has 145k miles on it and in another thread I believe he's stated that his engine hasn't required cleaning either. (*EDIT* - nevermind, he said it in this thread too)
The reason you may think it needs to be done so frequently is because somebody opened theirs up at that point because they felt like it, took pictures, and posted it on the internet. Just because it looks gross doesn't mean you've lost any power or efficiency, and it doesn't mean you needed to take it apart to clean it.
There's no reason to be "proactive" here. Just drive the car until it misfires or the check engine light comes on, then drive it somewhere to get the valves cleaned (or buy a six pack and do it in your own garage). It's not the end of the world.
I hear ya, but I'll still pass for now. I have a few friends who service them at dealerships and told me they're seen problems. Trav is also very well versed and shares a similar POV. Then you have these threads that keep popping up. The technology is improving, but IMO and the opinion of professionals who service them the tech isn't quite there yet.
Buy a vehicle with DI, CVT, turbo, etc all in one could have a nightmare of problems..
Originally Posted By: MCompact
For purposes of this thread only...
Number of individuals reporting DI problems who actually own a vehicle with DI: 0
Number of DI vehicle owners reporting problems: 0
Are you saying i need to own one to know the problems? I don't own a space shuttle either but i know 2 blew up so i assume they had a bit of an issue. LOL
For purposes of this thread only...
Number of individuals reporting DI problems who actually own a vehicle with DI: 0
Number of DI vehicle owners reporting problems: 0
Are you saying i need to own one to know the problems? I don't own a space shuttle either but i know 2 blew up so i assume they had a bit of an issue. LOL
Yes, but in that example the occupants of the space shuttles experienced the problem as well...
I just think it's instructive to note how often an individual will breathlessly report a "problem" with a particular vehicle when they have absolutely no personal or professional experience with the "problem" vehicle. Before long the conversation turns into a giant echo chamber with the "experts" running around like their hair is on fire when in reality they have never owned/serviced/driven/or even sat in the object of their hand-wringing hysteria.
I just think it's instructive to note how often an individual will breathlessly report a "problem" with a particular vehicle when they have absolutely no personal or professional experience with the "problem" vehicle. Before long the conversation turns into a giant echo chamber with the "experts" running around like their hair is on fire when in reality they have never owned/serviced/driven/or even sat in the object of their hand-wringing hysteria.
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: supton
I still don't get why some buildup causes problems. Buildup like that in a cylinder, I could see that causing preignition. But on the backside of the valve? Seems like minimal airflow loss. Only if poor valve sealing came into play. Or sticky valves.
Quote:
The deposits create turbulence and can restrict airflow into the cylinders causing performance and driveability problems (hesitation, stumbling, misfiring, even hard starting). The thicker the carbon deposit buildup on the valves, the worse the driveability problems.
http://www.aa1car.com/library/intake_valve_deposits_gdi_engines.htm
http://robisonservice.blogspot.com/2013/02/carbon-clogging-and-misfires-in-mini.html
Thanks. The photos in the blog I could see causing problems, huge amounts of stuff. I guess a NA mill is more sensitive to airflow restrictions than I think. But even the turbo mill was seeing problems--I'm used to reading about how the earlier TDi's would run fine until some power loss was noticed, then eventually the intake was cleaned and massive amounts of crud would have to be removed.
Originally Posted By: supton
I still don't get why some buildup causes problems. Buildup like that in a cylinder, I could see that causing preignition. But on the backside of the valve? Seems like minimal airflow loss. Only if poor valve sealing came into play. Or sticky valves.
Quote:
The deposits create turbulence and can restrict airflow into the cylinders causing performance and driveability problems (hesitation, stumbling, misfiring, even hard starting). The thicker the carbon deposit buildup on the valves, the worse the driveability problems.
http://www.aa1car.com/library/intake_valve_deposits_gdi_engines.htm
http://robisonservice.blogspot.com/2013/02/carbon-clogging-and-misfires-in-mini.html
Thanks. The photos in the blog I could see causing problems, huge amounts of stuff. I guess a NA mill is more sensitive to airflow restrictions than I think. But even the turbo mill was seeing problems--I'm used to reading about how the earlier TDi's would run fine until some power loss was noticed, then eventually the intake was cleaned and massive amounts of crud would have to be removed.
This whole problem of having to remove carbon deposits is akin to the old days, the pre-detergent oil days when oil pans had to be routinely dropped to scrape out the gook.
GDI is quite advanced for its time it seems.
GDI is quite advanced for its time it seems.
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Originally Posted By: MCompact
Yes, but in that example the occupants of the space shuttles experienced the problem as well...
I just think it's instructive to note how often an individual will breathlessly report a "problem" with a particular vehicle when they have absolutely no personal or professional experience with the "problem" vehicle. Before long the conversation turns into a giant echo chamber with the "experts" running around like their hair is on fire when in reality they have never owned/serviced/driven/or even sat in the object of their hand-wringing hysteria.
True but when personal friends who service these engines on a professional level alert me to issues they've addressed I listen. Again if DI was not having issues these threads wouldn't be popping with the frequency that we see here.
Yes, but in that example the occupants of the space shuttles experienced the problem as well...
I just think it's instructive to note how often an individual will breathlessly report a "problem" with a particular vehicle when they have absolutely no personal or professional experience with the "problem" vehicle. Before long the conversation turns into a giant echo chamber with the "experts" running around like their hair is on fire when in reality they have never owned/serviced/driven/or even sat in the object of their hand-wringing hysteria.
True but when personal friends who service these engines on a professional level alert me to issues they've addressed I listen. Again if DI was not having issues these threads wouldn't be popping with the frequency that we see here.
Originally Posted By: millerbl00
Some people just will not believe until it happens to them then its too late.
To which I would add that BG would not have developed products and marketing for a problem that does not exist.
GDI stands for opportunity https://www.bgprod.com/gdi-stands-for-opportunity/
Some people just will not believe until it happens to them then its too late.
To which I would add that BG would not have developed products and marketing for a problem that does not exist.
GDI stands for opportunity https://www.bgprod.com/gdi-stands-for-opportunity/
Originally Posted By: millerbl00
I am sure low quality gas does not help.
Low quality gas has ZERO to do with DI issues. See, the fuel doesn't touch the intake valve. So explain how poor fuel quality will affect it in any way?
I am sure low quality gas does not help.
Low quality gas has ZERO to do with DI issues. See, the fuel doesn't touch the intake valve. So explain how poor fuel quality will affect it in any way?
Originally Posted By: Ed_T
Originally Posted By: millerbl00
Some people just will not believe until it happens to them then its too late.
To which I would add that BG would not have developed products and marketing for a problem that does not exist.
GDI stands for opportunity https://www.bgprod.com/gdi-stands-for-opportunity/
Oh really? Companies have never "invented" problems just to sell products before? I call Beeess on that.
Originally Posted By: millerbl00
Some people just will not believe until it happens to them then its too late.
To which I would add that BG would not have developed products and marketing for a problem that does not exist.
GDI stands for opportunity https://www.bgprod.com/gdi-stands-for-opportunity/
Oh really? Companies have never "invented" problems just to sell products before? I call Beeess on that.
Originally Posted By: millerbl00
I am sure some people are experiencing problems. The people that are experiencing problems will have a hard time with the warranty. Will DI hold up like non DI? Time will tell but it looks like the problems are starting to occur on the higher mileage vehicles already.
You have proof of this? I'd like to see it. I haven't seen or heard of any substantial high-mileage issues on DI engines. The few are well known. Mini and early 2000s VW DI engines. Some issues on Ecoboosts, but it doesn't seem to be widespread. I want to see where you are getting your information about issues starting on high mileage engines.
I am sure some people are experiencing problems. The people that are experiencing problems will have a hard time with the warranty. Will DI hold up like non DI? Time will tell but it looks like the problems are starting to occur on the higher mileage vehicles already.
You have proof of this? I'd like to see it. I haven't seen or heard of any substantial high-mileage issues on DI engines. The few are well known. Mini and early 2000s VW DI engines. Some issues on Ecoboosts, but it doesn't seem to be widespread. I want to see where you are getting your information about issues starting on high mileage engines.
Originally Posted By: Nick R
Originally Posted By: Ed_T
Originally Posted By: millerbl00
Some people just will not believe until it happens to them then its too late.
To which I would add that BG would not have developed products and marketing for a problem that does not exist.
GDI stands for opportunity https://www.bgprod.com/gdi-stands-for-opportunity/
Oh really? Companies have never "invented" problems just to sell products before? I call Beeess on that.
Come on. They're not selling tailpipe toilet paper. These products are directed to specific real world problems.
If you choose to deny the existence of them, so be it. But the evidence is extant should you choose to consider it.
Originally Posted By: Ed_T
Originally Posted By: millerbl00
Some people just will not believe until it happens to them then its too late.
To which I would add that BG would not have developed products and marketing for a problem that does not exist.
GDI stands for opportunity https://www.bgprod.com/gdi-stands-for-opportunity/
Oh really? Companies have never "invented" problems just to sell products before? I call Beeess on that.
Come on. They're not selling tailpipe toilet paper. These products are directed to specific real world problems.
If you choose to deny the existence of them, so be it. But the evidence is extant should you choose to consider it.
Why are you so quick to think there aren't any problems? These vehicles are not foolproof.
Originally Posted By: Nick R
Originally Posted By: millerbl00
I am sure some people are experiencing problems. The people that are experiencing problems will have a hard time with the warranty. Will DI hold up like non DI? Time will tell but it looks like the problems are starting to occur on the higher mileage vehicles already.
You have proof of this? I'd like to see it. I haven't seen or heard of any substantial high-mileage issues on DI engines. The few are well known. Mini and early 2000s VW DI engines. Some issues on Ecoboosts, but it doesn't seem to be widespread. I want to see where you are getting your information about issues starting on high mileage engines.
Originally Posted By: Nick R
Originally Posted By: millerbl00
I am sure some people are experiencing problems. The people that are experiencing problems will have a hard time with the warranty. Will DI hold up like non DI? Time will tell but it looks like the problems are starting to occur on the higher mileage vehicles already.
You have proof of this? I'd like to see it. I haven't seen or heard of any substantial high-mileage issues on DI engines. The few are well known. Mini and early 2000s VW DI engines. Some issues on Ecoboosts, but it doesn't seem to be widespread. I want to see where you are getting your information about issues starting on high mileage engines.
Originally Posted By: Nick R
Originally Posted By: millerbl00
I am sure low quality gas does not help.
Low quality gas has ZERO to do with DI issues. See, the fuel doesn't touch the intake valve. So explain how poor fuel quality will affect it in any way?
It is quite simple. DI engines use high pressure injectors that foul more easily. When the injectors foul, it tends to create a rich condition in the combustion chamber with incomplete combustion. This leads to increased amounts of fuel reaching oil. This increases the volatility of the oil and produces more oil vapors that travel through the PCV. These vapors then condense on intake valves that are not hot enough.
It is quite well known you do not use low detergent gasoline with DI motors.
Originally Posted By: millerbl00
I am sure low quality gas does not help.
Low quality gas has ZERO to do with DI issues. See, the fuel doesn't touch the intake valve. So explain how poor fuel quality will affect it in any way?
It is quite simple. DI engines use high pressure injectors that foul more easily. When the injectors foul, it tends to create a rich condition in the combustion chamber with incomplete combustion. This leads to increased amounts of fuel reaching oil. This increases the volatility of the oil and produces more oil vapors that travel through the PCV. These vapors then condense on intake valves that are not hot enough.
It is quite well known you do not use low detergent gasoline with DI motors.
Thanks for the explanation. So if you don't know NOT to use cheap gas that could lead to problems.
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I don't think anybody here is saying that DI engines don't have a unique set of issues that you may have to deal with.
What we're saying is that ya'll are making a mountain out of a mole hill.
So on an average of every 100k miles you pay a mechanic $500 to clean the carbon off of your valves. How is that different from paying roughly the same amount to get a timing belt changed before almost everybody switched to chains?
Is it different simply because one is on the routine maintenance sheet and the other is not? I get that maybe this is a foul, that manufacturers aren't addressing it in that way.
I understand that you'd rather have as few problems as possible with your vehicle, but older vehicles had issues too. It seems like what most of you are really saying is that you'd rather go with the problems you know, no matter how bad they might be, than deal with anything new, because change is scary.
What we're saying is that ya'll are making a mountain out of a mole hill.
So on an average of every 100k miles you pay a mechanic $500 to clean the carbon off of your valves. How is that different from paying roughly the same amount to get a timing belt changed before almost everybody switched to chains?
Is it different simply because one is on the routine maintenance sheet and the other is not? I get that maybe this is a foul, that manufacturers aren't addressing it in that way.
I understand that you'd rather have as few problems as possible with your vehicle, but older vehicles had issues too. It seems like what most of you are really saying is that you'd rather go with the problems you know, no matter how bad they might be, than deal with anything new, because change is scary.
"I get that maybe this is a foul, that manufacturers aren't addressing it in that way."
BINGO
BINGO
It could be said that ya'll are making a mole hill out of a mountain.
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