School shooting, near Seattle

[Shannow]

Bear in mind also hat nearly 20% of those firearm homicides are, in fact suicides.

Last year when my father joined Oz' crime statistics, he simultaneously added to the "homicides" with a firearm, and the firearm death toll by one...it's technically correct, but it's the only time that they use these statistics...

The "gun related death toll" in Oz dropped markedly after the gun bans...the rates of murder and suicide didn't.

 

[Apollo14]

If guns weren't around, the pattern of crime and death through firearm would change.

No doubt certain crimes would go up because the deterrent against attacking or robbing a person or property has gone down.

But some other deaths might reduce eg accidental, heat of the moment. And the effectiveness in mass attacks might be reduced.

In China, do you hear that they are contemplating legalizing gun ownership to combat the threat of knife attacks? No, because they know better then to let that cat out of the bag.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Apollo14


In China, have you heard that they are contemplating legalizing gun ownership to combat the threat of knife attacks? No, they know better than to let that cat out of the bag.


China is a Communist Dictatorship, they'd never let the people own guns. That's a ridiculous straw-man.

Britain on the other hand is now talking about banning knives because that's what people resorted to when they didn't have guns. I'm sure once they don't have knives they'll find something else

Treating the symptom(s) rather than the problems is a game of the dog chasing its tail. They'll be banning everything under the sun and never accomplishing anything; chasing the perpetual "problem" without actually dealing with the source/causation of the incidents, hence their continuation.

And heat of the moment? Yeah, I'm going to get my keys, unlock my gun safe, grab my 12 gauge, put some 00 buck in the tube, go back downstairs, chamber a round, and then blow somebody away all in the "heat of the moment". Or am I more likely to grab a knife off the counter (if I'm nuts) and just stab somebody? What is more convenient?

Or, just to take this further, if there's a hammer near by, just smash them in the face with that... repeatedly?

Nuts is nuts. If somebody goes ballistic, yeah, if the gun is what they have, that's what they'll use. If there's a hammer, a knife, a hatchet, a meat tenderizer, a frying pan, a brick, a beer bottle they can break off and bludgeon you with.... It is going to happen. There is no magical banning of something that is going to prevent these incidents from occurring.

 

[Mystic]

They still just do not get it. They are so anti-gun, or anti-gun because their political leaders are anti-gun, that they don't even want to discuss the need for a properly functioning mental health system.

And look what two women with knives were able to do-killing 33 and wounding 143.

The guy in New York City with the hatchet attacked four cops armed with guns. He seriously injured one with a blow to the head and also wounded another cop before he was shot dead.

A properly motivated terrorist or mentally ill person could ram an automobile into a school bus. An automobile can be a lethal weapon capable of killing many people.

Guns and knives and automobiles are just tools. A human being has to make a decision to murder another human being, or many human beings. So that human being who decides to commit murder is mentally ill, or a terrorist, or a criminal. The mentally ill person needs treatment in a properly functioning mental health facility, the terrorism has to be dealt with militarily, and the criminal has to be dealt with by law enforcement and the courts.

And the outlawing of guns for law abiding citizens in the USA is not going to happen. People in the USA will not put up with it. Even if guns were outlawed criminals would probably stash large numbers of weapons and ammunition somewhere and for that matter law abiding citizens would probably stash weapons and ammunition. The government would have to search every home and building in the country, and they still would not be able to find everything. Guns and ammunition could be hidden in caves, or in boxes buried in the ground in rural areas.

Instead of worrying about taking guns away from law abiding citizens we need to worry about creating a good mental health system in this country. And if somebody is having obvious mental health issues REPORT IT!

Terrorism will have to be stopped by military action.

If somebody had noticed what this kid had been putting on Twitter, and had reported it, maybe the school shooting would have never taken place.

 

[Apollo14]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
China is a Communist Dictatorship, they'd never let the people own guns. That's a ridiculous straw-man.


Good point. But bringing up a few incidents of knife attacks in China does not prove that knives are as dangerous as guns.

Did anyone notice that the cops who killed the hatchet attack man also accidentally shot and seriously injured a bystander?

 

[Apollo14]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
People are being murdered mainly by terrorists or by people with mental health issues. Plus there is the occasional serial murderer.


Did you go and look for the actual numbers yet?

Here's a chart on terrorism - compare that to ~13,000 murders a year and you'll get it into perspective.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Apollo14
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
China is a Communist Dictatorship, they'd never let the people own guns. That's a ridiculous straw-man.


Good point. But bringing up a few incidents of knife attacks in China does not prove that knives are as dangerous as guns.

Did anyone notice that the cops who killed the hatchet attack man also seriously injured a bystander?


The scope of the mass attacks proves they can be pretty bloody effective. And also illustrates that you don't need a gun to kill dozens of people.

Guns are less "personal" than knives. But so is a car arguably. If somebody wanted to run down a crowd of people with an F-350..... That's going to be just as, if not more deadly than attacking them with an automatic rifle.

And yes, accidental injuries happen with law enforcement when they are trying to do their jobs. Like in a high speed pursuit when some innocent person gets rammed off the road and seriously injured. It happens and there is no easy way of avoiding it. Was the cop not supposed to shoot the hatchet wielding nutter and try to hug him into submission or something?

But hey, if we are going down the "what ifs" road, what if the mental health system was working properly and the guy had been identified and received treatment and was never attacking the cop with a hatchet in the first place? In a land of hypothetical's anything is possible, right?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Apollo14
Originally Posted By: Mystic
People are being murdered mainly by terrorists or by people with mental health issues. Plus there is the occasional serial murderer.


Did you go and look for the actual numbers yet?

Here's a chart on terrorism - compare that to ~13,000 murders a year and you'll get it into perspective.

But as Shannow pointed out, if that 13K includes suicides, what is the actual number, excluding those?

 

[Apollo14]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
But hey, if we are going down the "what ifs" road, what if the mental health system was working properly and the guy had been identified and received treatment and was never attacking the cop with a hatchet in the first place? In a land of hypothetical's anything is possible, right?


You brought up the China knife attacks and the "what ifs" of what people would use if they didn't have guns. I prefer to look at overall statistics to get the problem into context.

Eg China murder rate is 1 per 100,000 people (along with Western Europe, Australia), US is 4.7 making us closer to North Korea, Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan than "old Europe").

We're a more violent country and it's not because of mental illness.

And it's not because
Originally Posted By: Mystic
People are being murdered mainly by terrorists

 

[Apollo14]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
But as Shannow pointed out, if that 13K includes suicides, what is the actual number, excluding those?


US suicide rate is similar to other countries.

Here's a website for you to analyze numbers:

http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/suicide/by-country/

http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/violence/by-country/

You should come to the conclusion that the US has WAY more murders than countries we should compare ourselves against.

 

[Mamala Bay]

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/China/United-States/Crime

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Apollo14
You brought up the China knife attacks. I prefer to look at overall statistics to get the problem into context.


But you can't put the problem into context when compared to a country that is completely different in structure and government.

The fact that China, being the way it is, is seeing these knife attacks simply indicates that people are going to kill people if they are bent on killing people. That's what I was trying to illustrate.

Originally Posted By: Apollo14
Eg China murder rate is 1 per 100,000 people (along with Western Europe, Australia), US is 4.7 making us closer to North Korea, Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan than "old Europe").


OK, but a few things here:

1. The homicide rate in China has steadily declined, but there has been no change in arms policy to effect that. Obviously there is something else at play there.
2. North Korea has a rate of 15.2 (in 2008), how is that comparable to 4.7?
3. Norway, which has 33 guns per 100 people, has half the homicide rate of the USA. Same goes for Sweden. Switzerland, which has 46 guns per 100 people has a homicide rate of 0.5-0.7/100K, despite having even more guns.
4. Greenland (who I couldn't find ownership numbers on) has a homicide rate much higher than the USA (19.2 per 100K). And they do not have a "right to bear arms".
5. The Ukraine, which has a far lower firearms ownership rate (6.6 per 100 people) has a higher homicide rate (5.14 per 100K in 2012).

So I don't think there is that direct correlation you are trying to draw there.

Originally Posted By: Apollo14
We're a more violent country and it's not because of mental illness.


Compared to some. And less violent then others. And it doesn't seem the percentage of people with guns has any direct impact on that, based on the above. You have a higher homicide rate than many places in Europe (as well as Canada), but lower than others. And many of the places with higher homicide rates have far lower gun ownership numbers.

How are you coming to the conclusion that mental illness is somehow not more prevalent in the USA than in European nations (and places like Canada) that have free healthcare?

Originally Posted By: Apollo14
And it's not because

People are being murdered mainly by terrorists


No, but I'm not convinced it isn't because you have more people that need treatment that aren't receiving it due to your system traditionally having incredibly expensive healthcare costs.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Mamala Bay




http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/China/United-States/Crime





And:

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Greenland/United-States/Crime

 

[Apollo14]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
You brought up the China knife attacks. I prefer to look at overall statistics to get the problem into context.


But you can't put the problem into context when compared to a country that is completely different in structure and government.


Yes but you brought up China so it was reasonable to demonstrate that stories of a knife problem in China don't translate to a higher murder rate than Western Europe ie 1 per 100,000, like guns do in the US (4.7 per 100,000).

Otherwise people form the wrong impressions just as they do with reports of terrorism attacks:

Originally Posted By: Mystic
People are being murdered mainly by terrorists


And in mentioning China, I mentioned Australia and Western Europe, countries you can I hope more directly compare to the US. Again, they have a murder rate of 1 per 100,000, the US has 4.7 per 100,000


Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
The fact that China, being the way it is, is seeing these knife attacks simply indicates that people are going to kill people if they are bent on killing people. That's what I was trying to illustrate.

Nobody disagrees with this fact. What some are trying to point out is that if we compare ourselves with countries that we should be comparing ourselves with, we have a far higher murder rate and most of our murders are carried out by firearm. Should we not be trying to understand why they have a lower murder rate while having minimal firearm ownership?


Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

2. North Korea has a rate of 15.2 (in 2008), how is that comparable to 4.7?
3. Norway, which has 33 guns per 100 people, has half the homicide rate of the USA. Same goes for Sweden. Switzerland, which has 46 guns per 100 people has a homicide rate of 0.5-0.7/100K, despite having even more guns.
4. Greenland (who I couldn't find ownership numbers on) has a homicide rate much higher than the USA (19.2 per 100K). And they do not have a "right to bear arms".
5. The Ukraine, which has a far lower firearms ownership rate (6.6 per 100 people) has a higher homicide rate (5.14 per 100K in 2012).

So I don't think there is that direct correlation you are trying to draw there.


I love it how you pick a few examples to make your point while ignoring the more pertinent examples!

North Korea is 5.2 compared to US 4.7 according to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

And I take it you agree that we are closer to the murder rates in Iraq, Afghanistan & Pakistan than to overall Western Europe rates.

On that subject, again you decide to pick a few small European countries. Why not the larger countries such as the UK, France & Germany? So let's go for "Europe" as a whole instead huh? America vs "Europe" is 4.7 vs 3.0.

Originally Posted By: Apollo14
We're a more violent country and it's not because of mental illness.

Originally Posted By: Overkill
Compared to some. And less violent then others.


More violent compared to mature first world democracies, less violent compared to developing countries with dysfunctional leadership.


Originally Posted By: Overkill
How are you coming to the conclusion that mental illness is somehow not more prevalent in the USA than in European nations (and places like Canada) that have free healthcare?


Here's a good article that tries to get behind these hard to figure out numbers:

http://mentalillnesspolicy.org/consequences/1000-homicides.html

 

[Apollo14]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
And heat of the moment? Yeah, I'm going to get my keys, unlock my gun safe, grab my 12 gauge, put some 00 buck in the tube, go back downstairs, chamber a round, and then blow somebody away all in the "heat of the moment". Or am I more likely to grab a knife off the counter (if I'm nuts) and just stab somebody? What is more convenient?


Well according to the statistics, arguments are the leading cause of homicide and 60% of the time a firearm is the weapon used.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/cri...e-data-table-11

 

[02SE]

The bottom line is a profoundly screwed up kid ignored all the laws already in place forbidding the murder of innocent people.

Laws only work on those that are willing to follow them.

More laws restricting self defense, will do nothing except make it easier for the deranged to pick and choose soft targets.

Finally, statistics can be 'found', to support whatever argument is being made.

I believe the official number is that 97.86% of statistics are made up...

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: 02SE
The bottom line is a profoundly screwed up kid ignored all the laws already in place forbidding the murder of innocent people.

Laws only work on those that are willing to follow them.

More laws restricting self defense, will do nothing except make it easier for the deranged to pick and choose soft targets.

Finally, statistics can be 'found', to support whatever argument is being made.

I believe the official number is that 97.86% of statistics are made up...


+1 Especially the part about the statistics. I see statistics can often be used as bait to Troll posts with sometimes.

 

[Apollo14]

Sometimes, gasp, they are brought into discussions to correct outrageously false statements. This must be the trolling you are referring to:

Originally Posted By: Mystic
People are being murdered mainly by terrorists

 

[demarpaint]

And sometimes reincarnated members follow a very distinct pattern and single out the same people over and over....Oh well...

 

[Trav]

Look at where he gets his information. No facts just lies, rhetoric and psycho babble.
Hopefully the mods will take care of him again.