Parliament Hill attacked, soldier shot

[andyd]

I don't think taking on an entire religion over the actions of a few bush league warlords is the way to go. It would be better to gain a tighter focus. There is a billion of them. The situation in the Middle East has created a power vacuum in countries with oil and assorted goodies oil money can buy. If I got it right, that is what ISIS ,etc, are. Gangsters, not zealots. Governments the world over should be put on notice that harboring people who make war on the US and its allies to expect violent retribution.

 

[Apollo14]

Originally Posted By: JOD
Really?

Because was started as a thread about the parliament shooting devolved into a rant about "those brown terrorists" about 3 posts in, followed by the typical "yeah, rah rah" post, followed by your own "with us or against us" rant...

Pointing out the fact that the whole basis of this thread has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH AN ISLAMIC TERRORIST seems pretty germane to me. It's like McCarthism on steroids.

I'm sure your already crafting your "yeah, but" rebuttal in you head, but save your breath. All of the nonsense is just too transparent.


I agree. A lot of hysteria in this post which act as excuses for making political comments which are supposedly not allowed.

 

[Apollo14]

Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
I seems here that certain murders and painfully ignored here and others are played up by pants-wetters with some political agenda seeking to end that bane of humanity that is political correctness. Such as, there is a said nutjob running around Pennsylvania playing a "game" with police after ambushing two State Troopers and murdering one of them, yet that case is completely ignored here. It's ignored out of selective amnesia and these sorts of events are rare and not really worth the emotive extremes people are advocating here...


Spot on.

Of course, when it's someone who hasn't recently converted to Islam, the answer is "Guns don't kill people, people kill people".

But when a mentally unstable person converts to Islam, the suggestion isn't that a mentally unstable person killed people but that the religion is now the problem, that the people in far away countries are either with us or against us (yeah that worked out well didn't it), and that only a major destructive war is the answer.

 

[dave1251]

I am sorry did I miss the part Eric Frein and his little troop of cosplayers have declared holy war on the United States and its allies and has successfully killed in the name of terror?

 

[Apollo14]

^ how much more dangerous is it? How much more powerful is ISIS and the mentally unstable youth it attracts compared to Al Qaeda? Twice as bad as before? Five times? Ten times?

This is from 2008:

Quote:
If the risk of being killed by a terrorist were added to the list, the dot would be so small that it would be hard to see. Specifically, the risk of being killed by terrorism in 2008 was 14 times smaller than being killed by fireworks.

Get a grip soldier and stop scaring yourself and others.

 

[dave1251]

2008 one of the years the U.S. contained the battlefront to Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, and a few other places.

Now? Thanks to procrastination and a very huge strategic error the battlefront has started to spread to the U.S and her allies, including a very loyal neighbor to the north. At least Canada along with U.K. has leader to call a spade a spade.

I personally enjoy your nice little childish banter at the end of your post. Considering my little brother whom is batty due to PTSD from surviving an IED that killed his LT. on his first deployment and on his second deployment to Iraq he had the horrifying honor of holding his dying friend in his arms in the aftermath of a raid to clear a building.

Less than 10 years later due to campaign promises and misguided liberal ideals of KUMBYA now ISIS has gained considerable power and has waged war on the fronts of Iraq and Syria, Western Europe, and North America.

You may call the lone wolf's loons and I will not disagree. The loons have taken the cause of ISIS because of the success of ISIS and the success of ISIS has made the cause of ISIS a creditable cause.

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: dave1251
2008 one of the years the U.S. contained the battlefront to Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, and a few other places.

Now? Thanks to procrastination and a very huge strategic error the battlefront has started to spread to the U.S and her allies, including a very loyal neighbor to the north. At least Canada along with U.K. has leader to call a spade a spade.

I personally enjoy your nice little childish banter at the end of your post. Considering my little brother whom is batty due to PTSD from surviving an IED that killed his LT. on his first deployment and on his second deployment to Iraq he had the horrifying honor of holding his dying friend in his arms in the aftermath of a raid to clear a building.

Less than 10 years later due to campaign promises and misguided liberal ideals of KUMBYA now ISIS has gained considerable power and has waged war on the fronts of Iraq and Syria, Western Europe, and North America.

You may call the lone wolf's loons and I will not disagree. The loons have taken the cause of ISIS because of the success of ISIS and the success of ISIS has made the cause of ISIS a creditable cause.

I am sorry for your brother's experiences, and its for people like him that we need to figure out a better way to deal with the middle east and extreme islam. We won militarily in Iraq and the rest, but that's not a solution in itself obviously. Just like blowing up a few Toyota's and some guys with beards now isn't going to fix the problem for the long term either.
Going forward, I think we have to decide to either commit to hard work of rebuilding a society after a military intervention(the easy part), or don't get involved militarily and try to help people through other means.
Also I think most of the current middle east problems are caused by US foreign policy being determined by business interests. Going forward I think with new energy tech and sources, there's no need to mess around in that area at all anymore. Iran, Syria, Iraq could easily defeat ISIS themselves, let them do it or not, it really won't make any difference to us if we keep our hands clean of it.

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
.
It took two nukes and the threat of complete annihilation to get Imperial Japan to surrender. It took bombing Germany into a pile of rubble. War is not pretty, it isn't clean, it isn't nice. It doesn't play friendly and it isn't something that you can go half into and expect to get anywhere. In order to succeed at war somebody has to lose. Somebody has to admit defeat. 10's of millions of people paid the price in World War II so that we have the freedoms we enjoy today. So that people can pretend that peace is something that just "happens" when you refuse to get involved. Peace has a price. Freedom has a price. And that price is both monetary and expressed in human lives.

Co-existence is manufactured hippie nonsense. As long as the human race has lived there has been conflict. Peace is only temporary and only happens due to great loss or the threat of great loss (the Cold War for example). Eventually you will again have to stand up and defend it. There has always been and will always be evil. Managing it is the hard part.


Your first two statements are simply supported by no study or historical facts.

It's now believed by some that Japan surrendered largely because they feared a communist Soviet invasion of the home islands and that their surrender has at least as much to do with the "August Storm" Soviet offensive that rolled up their million man Manchurian Army in short order. The Japanese militarist were quite willing to annihilate their nation so long as the emperor remained in power at the end of the day.

Strategic bombing and the killing of up to 600,000 German civilians had little tangible effect on German civilian morale and probably strengthened resistance in Normandy by the German Heer and SS. Strategic bombing and Aurthur Harris' presumption of the "whirlwind" or terror bombing was probably rather wasteful and not the best use of resources. I think your premise here of bludgeoning people into submission is rather flawed...


Unfortunately, that was the only way to deal with our enemies back then...and it's the only way to deal with our enemies today as they don't value human life at all...

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: Apollo14
Get a grip soldier and stop scaring yourself and others.


Such a callous and uncaring comment when we have thousands of vets from many wars.

Very revealing, Mori...

 

[Mystic]

It is easy for someone who was not there in Canada when these terrorist attacks took place to make statements like that.

How anybody can say that these various attacks are not terrorism is beyond my understanding. In attack after attack by various individuals there were often various uniting factors such as the individual who committed the terrorist act had just recently converted to a certain religion, or they had a Facebook Page with all kinds of hatred displayed on the Facebook Page, etc. The Canadian Prime Minister declared that the incident in Ottawa was terrorism.

There have already been several such attacks by lone wolves in Britain, Canada, and the USA. And a group was stopped in Australia. ISIS has openly called for lone wolf attacks on social media.

Instead of facing reality we hear the usual nonsense about gun control, etc.

Well, the terrorist in Canada who ran over the two Canadian soldiers and killed one of them used an automobile.

And the terrorist in New York City used an axe.

And the terrorist in Oklahoma used a knife.

 

[stockrex]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: dave1251
2008 one of the years the U.S. contained the battlefront to Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, and a few other places.

Now? Thanks to procrastination and a very huge strategic error the battlefront has started to spread to the U.S and her allies, including a very loyal neighbor to the north. At least Canada along with U.K. has leader to call a spade a spade.

I personally enjoy your nice little childish banter at the end of your post. Considering my little brother whom is batty due to PTSD from surviving an IED that killed his LT. on his first deployment and on his second deployment to Iraq he had the horrifying honor of holding his dying friend in his arms in the aftermath of a raid to clear a building.

Less than 10 years later due to campaign promises and misguided liberal ideals of KUMBYA now ISIS has gained considerable power and has waged war on the fronts of Iraq and Syria, Western Europe, and North America.

You may call the lone wolf's loons and I will not disagree. The loons have taken the cause of ISIS because of the success of ISIS and the success of ISIS has made the cause of ISIS a creditable cause.

I am sorry for your brother's experiences, and its for people like him that we need to figure out a better way to deal with the middle east and extreme islam. We won militarily in Iraq and the rest, but that's not a solution in itself obviously. Just like blowing up a few Toyota's and some guys with beards now isn't going to fix the problem for the long term either.
Going forward, I think we have to decide to either commit to hard work of rebuilding a society after a military intervention(the easy part), or don't get involved militarily and try to help people through other means.
Also I think most of the current middle east problems are caused by US foreign policy being determined by business interests. Going forward I think with new energy tech and sources, there's no need to mess around in that area at all anymore. Iran, Syria, Iraq could easily defeat ISIS themselves, let them do it or not, it really won't make any difference to us if we keep our hands clean of it.


I care more for your brother than I do for the people of Iraq. We had NO business going to Iraq and it was all based on lies. All it got us are more enemies and lot of dead/wounded citizens and lot more dead Iraqis. It deeply saddens me every time I see flag at half mast. we need to let these people figure out their own destiny and stay out of it for the sake of own citizens. Remind me again how many members of our fine congress have their kids serving or on the battlefield?
It is easy to send someone else's brother, son, sister, father off to war.

Terrorism = the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of a religious, political, or ideological goal; and deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants (e.g., neutral military personnel or civilians). Some definitions now include acts of unlawful violence and war.

We are oblivious to terrorism when it happens somewhere else or the victims are non-anglo saxon.

How many of you know who the LTTE terrorists are?
They have undertaken more suicide bombing than ALL the terrorist organization of the world combined.

A lot of these members are living in Canada and most of violence in Toronto can be attributed to some of these terrorists.

I tell you the story of a Michigan militia member john braintumor. john does not acknowledge any authority. john never had a SSN till he developed a brain tumor and needed to see a doctor on the tax payers dime.
john would spend his entire visit talking about paranoia around the federal govt tracking citizen (mind you this was before all the leaks) and even cut off a street traffic light and brought to doctor's office to prove the presence of a bar-code that used to track from satellites.

Anyway, how should be term john? a right wing reform christian nut job terrorist? or a deeply sick individual who needs treatment.

In an irony of life john's neurologist, who operated on john saved his life, is a muslim guy from pakistan.

We use our tax money to arm/train these organizations like ISIS, alqueda. We give more to fight them.

 

[dave1251]

Was invading Iraq a blunder? Of course and sitting on our hands while ISIS gains more resources and grows stronger is also a mistake.

 

[Apollo14]

Originally Posted By: stockrex
I care more for your brother than I do for the people of Iraq. We had NO business going to Iraq and it was all based on lies. All it got us are more enemies and lot of dead/wounded citizens and lot more dead Iraqis. It deeply saddens me every time I see flag at half mast. we need to let these people figure out their own destiny and stay out of it for the sake of own citizens. Remind me again how many members of our fine congress have their kids serving or on the battlefield?
It is easy to send someone else's brother, son, sister, father off to war.

Terrorism = the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of a religious, political, or ideological goal; and deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants (e.g., neutral military personnel or civilians). Some definitions now include acts of unlawful violence and war.

We are oblivious to terrorism when it happens somewhere else or the victims are non-anglo saxon.

How many of you know who the LTTE terrorists are?
They have undertaken more suicide bombing than ALL the terrorist organization of the world combined.

A lot of these members are living in Canada and most of violence in Toronto can be attributed to some of these terrorists.

I tell you the story of a Michigan militia member john braintumor. john does not acknowledge any authority. john never had a SSN till he developed a brain tumor and needed to see a doctor on the tax payers dime.
john would spend his entire visit talking about paranoia around the federal govt tracking citizen (mind you this was before all the leaks) and even cut off a street traffic light and brought to doctor's office to prove the presence of a bar-code that used to track from satellites.

Anyway, how should be term john? a right wing reform christian nut job terrorist? or a deeply sick individual who needs treatment.

In an irony of life john's neurologist, who operated on john saved his life, is a muslim guy from pakistan.

We use our tax money to arm/train these organizations like ISIS, alqueda. We give more to fight them.



Good post. We keep on getting war and terrorism and it's costs terribly out of perspective. And we repeat the mistake of wanting to take action and neglecting to think of the consequences.

Terrorism in the US is nothing like terrorism elsewhere. To equate the two is ridiculous.

In a place where significant terrorism takes place, cool heads are required. And what do cool heads, faced with a significant threat do? Well Netanyahu has gone on the record and said he is not worried about ISIS. Because he's assessed the threat and put it into perspective. But here we need NEW things to be worried about. The old problems are boring, no matter that they have an impact that dwarfs "terrorism", we need NEW problems.

So we'll whip up the hysteria and give the state and hawkish leaders the right to curb liberties and begin a march to war. We'll repeat the mistakes of not thinking of the consequences. Follow not just the money but the motivation. We have people whose sole motivation is to crystallize these threats. It reminds me of the military surplus store owner in "Falling Down".

Think of the consequences of our past need to act against perceived threats:

- Over 6000 military suicides a year. Those soldiers lived and others still live with terror as a result of wars they shouldn't have fought. And think of their husbands and wives, children, parents, siblings, all living with the consequences of stress or suicide every day for the rest of their lives. And it has effects on society too.

- Outside of the effect on our military, how about the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis? My god, just think what it must be like to live through perpetual conflict.

- How about the trillions in tax spent during and the ongoing spending burdens we have created? For most people, you're talking about months of work for no return.

If you want to get the domestic threat from mentally unstable lone wolfs in perspective in the US:

- Did you know there are an estimated 60,000 people in the US believed to be enslaved?

- Do you know that prescription drugs kill thousands of people every year and is the driving reason for a six fold increase in death from poisoning?

- Did you know that some 200,000 people die every year in hospital from preventable errors?

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: dave1251
Or do you prefer the hammer and sickle with Lenin?

I don't know who he prefers, Dave, but I do know one thing. If someone tried a stunt like this in Uncle Joe's time and place, he would have dealt with it vigorously, to say the least.

 

[antiqueshell]

stockrex is CORRECT!

Folks here still don't "get it" the reason we have
this terrorism is because of all the dirty deeds
done by the US and other Western Governments in the past.
It's called "blow back".

 

[Apollo14]

I think the truth is more subtle than that.

The west has meddled a lot and America in particular is not trusted. Non extremists in many countries have suffered because of the extremists and because of the west.

Yet we expect the non extremists to support us unconditionally, that they are either with us or against us. We fail to realize that from their point of view, our actions have not matched our rhetoric. We are not their white knight.

But the true extremists do hate what we are. They see aspects of our values and way of life as against their be all and end all religion and an affront to their god. With the internet, no doubt more of them can see this for themselves. When half internet traffic is pornography, you can imagine it isn't hard for them to conclude the west is decadent.

 

[spasm3]

Originally Posted By: Apollo14
When half internet traffic is pornography, you can imagine it isn't hard for them to conclude the west is decadent.


From what i understand, porn is generally found at most of Al Qaeda hangouts, if i remember porn was found at Osama's pakistan location.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
stockrex is CORRECT!

Folks here still don't "get it" the reason we have
this terrorism is because of all the dirty deeds
done by the US and other Western Governments in the past.
It's called "blow back".




I find it hard to disagree with this statement.


When you spend your time being treacherous on foreign soil you make enemies. Some of those enemies have long memories.
It's sad that America's sons pay those bills in their own blood. And American families suffer that loss.

 

[ofelas]

I dropped a few head of beef off in the Ottawa area on the day of the Parliament attacks - 92 CTD with its summer fill of AME for BITOG'ers - chuckled at the city folks at McD blaming guns for the terrorist's attack.

And the usual nonsense about how the US is to blame. A lot of Easterners seem to feel that way, as opposed to rural folks & Westerners.

I set that gaggle at McD straight.

 

[OVERKILL]

An update to this:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ottawa-shooting-michael-zehaf-bibeau-made-video-police-say-1.2813798

Quote:
The RCMP says it has evidence that indicates the attack that killed a Canadian soldier in Ottawa and resulted in a gunfight on Parliament Hill was driven by ideological and political motives.

Gunman Michael Zehaf-Bibeau, 32, made a video recording of himself just before last week's attack, the RCMP said on Sunday. RCMP Commissioner Bob Paulson said in a statement it was conducting a detailed analysis of the video and could not release it at this time.

RCMP also said they believe a knife Zehaf-Bibeau was carrying was taken from his aunt's property in Mont Tremblant, Que. He had lived there years earlier and appeared to have stored the knife on the property.

Authorities are still looking into the origin of the gun used in the deadly attack at the National War Memorial that left 24-year-old Cpl. Nathan Cirillo dead. Police called it an old, uncommon gun that Zehaf-Bibeau could have also hidden on the property.

Zehaf-Bibeau subsidized his pre-attack activities from his own earnings, police said.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper has called Wednesday's shooting a terror attack, and the bloodshed raised fears that Canada is suffering reprisals for joining the U.S.-led air campaign against ISIS extremists in Iraq and Syria.

Police are investigating Zehaf-Bibeau's interactions with numerous individuals in the days leading up to the attack and whether they could have contributed or facilitated it.

Royal Canadian Mounted Police Commissioner Bob Paulson said last week Zehaf-Bibeau, whose father was from Libya, may have lashed out in frustration over delays in getting his passport. Paulson said Zehaf-Bibeau's mother told police that her son had wanted to go Syria. Susan Bibeau later denied that in a letter published by Postmedia News, saying her son told her he wanted to go to Saudi Arabia where he could study the Qur'an.