calcium sulfonate quiz

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What are the coefficient of friction and Load bearing ability of Calcium sulfonate?
Few reference points
1. MOS2 – COF 2.WOS2 COF – 0,03 Dynamic and 0.07 Static ;Load bearing ability up to 400,000 psi=2750MPa
3. PTFE – COF=0.05...0,1 ;Load bearing ability up to 23MPa
 
Are you asking about overbased calcium sulfonate grease that is used as an indicator for calcium based additives. Tests I've seen using AISI 52100 steel discs demonstrated stable friction coefficients as low as 0.10 to 0.12. The results were obtained by using a scanning electron microscope. Worn surfaces of the AISI 52100 steel discs were examined using X-ray photoelectron spectroscopy. It was considered that the formation of tribochemical films led to lower friction coefficient and high wear resistance.
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
There are many calcium sulfonates with various particle sizes, concentrations, and synthesis processes.


Well there are so many MOS2 and WOS PTFE with various particle sizes, concentrations, and synthesis processes.

However the the average data is availiable
Plase give information for particular calium sulfonate furmulation if you have it.
 
Originally Posted By: miro
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
There are many calcium sulfonates with various particle sizes, concentrations, and synthesis processes.


Well there are so many MOS2 and WOS PTFE with various particle sizes, concentrations, and synthesis processes.

However the the average data is availiable
Plase give information for particular calium sulfonate furmulation if you have it.


You mean you download the paper, Comparison Friction and Wear Properties of Overbased Calcium Sulfonate Complex Grease and Polyurea Grease, and they didn't give any data?

Here is some data on grease formulations with test data:

Lubrizol Grease Presentation

For grease applications one is more interested in EP properties such as load, wear, and anti-weld capabilities.
 
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Its no secret that I use Petro-Can products, which includes their OG-0 and OG-1
grease.
They have an OG heavy that has a significantly higher base oil than the others.

This is not a plug for any one brand that offers the same performance, but I'm
considering the above for down hill mountain bikes and bicycle wheel bearings.

The water resistance and water reversibility of that type of grease is attractive.

Would the grease with the higher base oil viscosity be an advantage over the same
grade (2) than the same grease formulated with a lower viscosity base oil grade?
 
Originally Posted By: used_0il

Would the grease with the higher base oil viscosity be an advantage over the same
grade (2) than the same grease formulated with a lower viscosity base oil grade?


Depends on the conditions. Usually you choose a higher base oil viscosity grease in heavy loaded applications (most mining greases have high base oil viscosity for this reason.) however it could negatively impact starting and running torque, especially at colder temperatures. I would probably use Og-1 in your bikes. Your right, Water resistance on these greases is phenomenal.
 
Originally Posted By: used_0il
Its no secret that I use Petro-Can products, which includes their OG-0 and OG-1
grease.
They have an OG heavy that has a significantly higher base oil than the others.

This is not a plug for any one brand that offers the same performance, but I'm
considering the above for down hill mountain bikes and bicycle wheel bearings.

The water resistance and water reversibility of that type of grease is attractive.

Would the grease with the higher base oil viscosity be an advantage over the same
grade (2) than the same grease formulated with a lower viscosity base oil grade?


Just to avoid some misconceptions – grease is oil with thickener and not other way around. For most greases greases the thickener is like sponge. Calcium sulfonate greases are exception. The thinkenenr is AW and EP additive.
I would recommend you to select grease following this.
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/798/grease-selection

Personly a switched few of our bikes to calcium sulfone grease – in my case Total ceran WR2.
I have little experience – only few mothns in the dry sommer period. In general it seems to be a grease stuff in most area, but want to have the low temperature performance of Synthetics Li-complex greases – e.g. Mobil SHC 100, 220
Next year April/May will make a report about using Total ceran WR2 instead of Mobil SHC 100 and 220 on our bikes.
Back to your question – whatever the grease is ,I will never go bellow ISO 100 base oil. ISO 220 is just great for most bicycle applications. I like NLGI2 for bearing because it make nice channel on it. Don’t be shy to use heavy greases. Bottom bracket, pedals and hubs consumes just 4 wats by 20mph flat ride – 200..250W. Good tires and well maintained drivetrain is more important.
 
Originally Posted By: used_0il
Would the grease with the higher base oil viscosity be an advantage over the same grade (2) than the same grease formulated with a lower viscosity base oil grade?


I brought Mobil SHC into the workplace a decade and a half ago (Lithium, but with different viscosity basestocks)....great thing about it is that you can choose the viscosity of the oil with same ngli number.

Electric motors (up to 2000 horses or so), where the load wasn't radially on the bearings we increase 10-15C going from 100 to 220 ISO basestocks...we sit on 100 for motors, 220 for stuff with radial load.
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule



Thanks for the input and sorry for my late reaction
smile.gif
;
I had read this article before too. The reason why I’m asking is that last week I was confronted from one real-life fact.
I have assembled the back wheel on my city bike. I had used MOS2 ISO140 LI-complex grease up until now.
I decided to try Total Ceran WR2 – Ca sulfonate grease this time. Result overtightened nut. Haply only the nut was broken, no damage at the hub axis. I have used the same torque as before when I use MOS2 grease for it
I was warned of it, but I rather expect such problem with MOS2 greases instead of non MOS2 greases.
What went wrong is still mystery for me.
When I look at grease TDS I have found another interesting issue. Many MOS and not MOS greases share the same ASTM D 2266, ASTM D 2509 values . Funny enough in some cases datasheet is just copy-paste.

http://www.exxonmobil.com/marinelubes-en...e-xhp-222.aspx#
http://mascopetroleum.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Mobilgrease-XHP-222.pdf
 
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I don't see any connection between the broken nut and the grease type, assuming the same grease ISO specs, nor do I see your point of the quiz.
 
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Originally Posted By: MolaKule
I don't see any connection between the broken nut and the grease type, assuming the same grease ISO specs, nor do I see your point of the quiz.

I don’t see your point either. To clearify it I have few questions
1. What has base oil viscosity to do in this case? The application is M8 bolt with nut turnig with manual wrench Do yo see en EHD lubrication at that speed? I don’t see even the boundary lubrication. PS you understand that I can turn the nut with max 10..20rpm.
2. You next point – what has broken tread to do with grease?
Lets have a four equal bolts and nuts M5. They are tightened with prescribed torque =30Nm
- One setup is not lubricated
- Another is lubricated with ISO 220 grease
- 3-th lubricated ISO220 MOS2 grease
- 4-th lubricated with ISO220 Calcium sulfonate grease
- 5-th lubricated with ISO32 MOS2 Calcium sulfonate.
What do you expect?
Do you still not see any connection between type op EP grease and broken treads?
 
Do you understand why I'm asking what is the coefficient of friction?
I still don't have an answer
I don't know it either. Wikipedia and link below provide COF for MOS2 WOS and PTFE

http://lowerfriction.com/pdf/8.pdf

One stribeck curve can give the answer
 
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Since this got stuck, I'd say: Maybe you can't find an answer because calcium sulfonate isn't a friction modifier, and should have a lawsy coheficient ...
Calcium sulfonate is a Detergent, to clean deposits like lacquer and varnish from contaminants, since last time I saw ... And it is a salt that completely dissolves to the base when mixed.
 
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