Do tires that are thinner or less wide do better in the rain? Givin the same exact tire and tread pattern let's say one tire is a 245/75/16 and one is a 285/75/16 will the less wide tire have better wet traction?
Tire size with wet driving
- Thread starter Camprunner
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The narrower tire should resist hydroplaning better since it can punch down to the pavement.
Rubber compound and tread design/depth will determine traction in turns, but tire width is a factor in hydroplaning in the straights. All else being equal, a narrower tire should be better overall in the wet.
Originally Posted By: Camprunner
Do tires that are thinner or less wide do better in the rain? Givin the same exact tire and tread pattern let's say one tire is a 245/75/16 and one is a 285/75/16 will the less wide tire have better wet traction?
OK, you've got more than just one parameter in your example. In engineering terms, you've confounded the question. Your example also includes load carrying capacity as a parameter - unless you adjust the inflation pressure, then you've added THAT as a parameter.
A better comparison would be 2 tires of the same make and model with the same load carrying capacity, but different sizes. Like a 205/75R15 and a 215/70R15.
So let's use those 2 sizes and answer your question:
First, you have to understand that wet traction consists of 2 things: Hydroplaning resistance (which is highly speed dependent), and the - oh, I'll call it "grip". To get the amount of traction available, you subtract the amount hydroplaning from the grip.
As a general rule, wider is worse for hydroplaning resistance. However, grip is dependent of the amount of contact - so wider is better.
So it very much depends on speed.
Returning to your example - too many variables. If we assume the load carrying capacity is adjusted to be the same by adjusting the inflation pressure, then we have a situation where the contact patch shape has changed, the size of the contact patch is more or less the same, so the net effect is the same as my example above, but this answer isn't nearly as true.
Do tires that are thinner or less wide do better in the rain? Givin the same exact tire and tread pattern let's say one tire is a 245/75/16 and one is a 285/75/16 will the less wide tire have better wet traction?
OK, you've got more than just one parameter in your example. In engineering terms, you've confounded the question. Your example also includes load carrying capacity as a parameter - unless you adjust the inflation pressure, then you've added THAT as a parameter.
A better comparison would be 2 tires of the same make and model with the same load carrying capacity, but different sizes. Like a 205/75R15 and a 215/70R15.
So let's use those 2 sizes and answer your question:
First, you have to understand that wet traction consists of 2 things: Hydroplaning resistance (which is highly speed dependent), and the - oh, I'll call it "grip". To get the amount of traction available, you subtract the amount hydroplaning from the grip.
As a general rule, wider is worse for hydroplaning resistance. However, grip is dependent of the amount of contact - so wider is better.
So it very much depends on speed.
Returning to your example - too many variables. If we assume the load carrying capacity is adjusted to be the same by adjusting the inflation pressure, then we have a situation where the contact patch shape has changed, the size of the contact patch is more or less the same, so the net effect is the same as my example above, but this answer isn't nearly as true.
It is amazing how much difference the exact make and model of tire makes.
FWIW the Michelin Pilots on my car seem nearly immune to hydroplaning even with 50% tread and very large width (275/35/20)...
FWIW the Michelin Pilots on my car seem nearly immune to hydroplaning even with 50% tread and very large width (275/35/20)...
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Originally Posted By: Camprunner
Do tires that are thinner or less wide do better in the rain? Givin the same exact tire and tread pattern let's say one tire is a 245/75/16 and one is a 285/75/16 will the less wide tire have better wet traction?
OK, you've got more than just one parameter in your example. In engineering terms, you've confounded the question. Your example also includes load carrying capacity as a parameter - unless you adjust the inflation pressure, then you've added THAT as a parameter.
A better comparison would be 2 tires of the same make and model with the same load carrying capacity, but different sizes. Like a 205/75R15 and a 215/70R15.
So let's use those 2 sizes and answer your question:
First, you have to understand that wet traction consists of 2 things: Hydroplaning resistance (which is highly speed dependent), and the - oh, I'll call it "grip". To get the amount of traction available, you subtract the amount hydroplaning from the grip.
As a general rule, wider is worse for hydroplaning resistance. However, grip is dependent of the amount of contact - so wider is better.
So it very much depends on speed.
Returning to your example - too many variables. If we assume the load carrying capacity is adjusted to be the same by adjusting the inflation pressure, then we have a situation where the contact patch shape has changed, the size of the contact patch is more or less the same, so the net effect is the same as my example above, but this answer isn't nearly as true.
I seem to recall a physics lesson which demonstrates that friction is INDEPENDENT of the area of contact, but rubber does not behave the way a couple of steel cubes rubbed together does.
Originally Posted By: Camprunner
Do tires that are thinner or less wide do better in the rain? Givin the same exact tire and tread pattern let's say one tire is a 245/75/16 and one is a 285/75/16 will the less wide tire have better wet traction?
OK, you've got more than just one parameter in your example. In engineering terms, you've confounded the question. Your example also includes load carrying capacity as a parameter - unless you adjust the inflation pressure, then you've added THAT as a parameter.
A better comparison would be 2 tires of the same make and model with the same load carrying capacity, but different sizes. Like a 205/75R15 and a 215/70R15.
So let's use those 2 sizes and answer your question:
First, you have to understand that wet traction consists of 2 things: Hydroplaning resistance (which is highly speed dependent), and the - oh, I'll call it "grip". To get the amount of traction available, you subtract the amount hydroplaning from the grip.
As a general rule, wider is worse for hydroplaning resistance. However, grip is dependent of the amount of contact - so wider is better.
So it very much depends on speed.
Returning to your example - too many variables. If we assume the load carrying capacity is adjusted to be the same by adjusting the inflation pressure, then we have a situation where the contact patch shape has changed, the size of the contact patch is more or less the same, so the net effect is the same as my example above, but this answer isn't nearly as true.
I seem to recall a physics lesson which demonstrates that friction is INDEPENDENT of the area of contact, but rubber does not behave the way a couple of steel cubes rubbed together does.
I have not compared sizes but I have had problems with hydroplaning on straights. Loss of grip is caused by failing to rotate tires, and a bad alignment.
In snow narrow and wide tires can provide good traction so I suspect the same is true on wet surfaces. When a wide tire is standard equipment on front wheel drive traction is good.
In snow narrow and wide tires can provide good traction so I suspect the same is true on wet surfaces. When a wide tire is standard equipment on front wheel drive traction is good.
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Originally Posted By: Camprunner
Do tires that are thinner or less wide do better in the rain? Givin the same exact tire and tread pattern let's say one tire is a 245/75/16 and one is a 285/75/16 will the less wide tire have better wet traction?
OK, you've got more than just one parameter in your example. In engineering terms, you've confounded the question. Your example also includes load carrying capacity as a parameter - unless you adjust the inflation pressure, then you've added THAT as a parameter.
A better comparison would be 2 tires of the same make and model with the same load carrying capacity, but different sizes. Like a 205/75R15 and a 215/70R15.
So let's use those 2 sizes and answer your question:
First, you have to understand that wet traction consists of 2 things: Hydroplaning resistance (which is highly speed dependent), and the - oh, I'll call it "grip". To get the amount of traction available, you subtract the amount hydroplaning from the grip.
As a general rule, wider is worse for hydroplaning resistance. However, grip is dependent of the amount of contact - so wider is better.
So it very much depends on speed.
Returning to your example - too many variables. If we assume the load carrying capacity is adjusted to be the same by adjusting the inflation pressure, then we have a situation where the contact patch shape has changed, the size of the contact patch is more or less the same, so the net effect is the same as my example above, but this answer isn't nearly as true.
I seem to recall a physics lesson which demonstrates that friction is INDEPENDENT of the area of contact, but rubber does not behave the way a couple of steel cubes rubbed together does.
That's static friction.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/frict2.html
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Originally Posted By: Camprunner
Do tires that are thinner or less wide do better in the rain? Givin the same exact tire and tread pattern let's say one tire is a 245/75/16 and one is a 285/75/16 will the less wide tire have better wet traction?
OK, you've got more than just one parameter in your example. In engineering terms, you've confounded the question. Your example also includes load carrying capacity as a parameter - unless you adjust the inflation pressure, then you've added THAT as a parameter.
A better comparison would be 2 tires of the same make and model with the same load carrying capacity, but different sizes. Like a 205/75R15 and a 215/70R15.
So let's use those 2 sizes and answer your question:
First, you have to understand that wet traction consists of 2 things: Hydroplaning resistance (which is highly speed dependent), and the - oh, I'll call it "grip". To get the amount of traction available, you subtract the amount hydroplaning from the grip.
As a general rule, wider is worse for hydroplaning resistance. However, grip is dependent of the amount of contact - so wider is better.
So it very much depends on speed.
Returning to your example - too many variables. If we assume the load carrying capacity is adjusted to be the same by adjusting the inflation pressure, then we have a situation where the contact patch shape has changed, the size of the contact patch is more or less the same, so the net effect is the same as my example above, but this answer isn't nearly as true.
I seem to recall a physics lesson which demonstrates that friction is INDEPENDENT of the area of contact, but rubber does not behave the way a couple of steel cubes rubbed together does.
That's static friction.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/frict2.html
Directional tires seem to make a big difference in rain-the Aquatred/TripleTred design (shared by the Michelin Pilot) seems to be great in heavy rain, a wider one of that style would be MUCH better in rain than a generic all season radial.
Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
Directional tires seem to make a big difference in rain-the Aquatred/TripleTred design (shared by the Michelin Pilot) seems to be great in heavy rain, a wider one of that style would be MUCH better in rain than a generic all season radial.
First, I think differences between tires can be quite significant.
Second, I don't think the difference between a directional tire and a non-directional tire is that much - all other things being equal. When Goodyear first produced the AquaTred, the company I worked for tested the tire both the correct direction and the wrong direction, and only got a 10% difference. So an non-directional tire would only be 5%. I think tires can be 30 or 40% different.
Directional tires seem to make a big difference in rain-the Aquatred/TripleTred design (shared by the Michelin Pilot) seems to be great in heavy rain, a wider one of that style would be MUCH better in rain than a generic all season radial.
First, I think differences between tires can be quite significant.
Second, I don't think the difference between a directional tire and a non-directional tire is that much - all other things being equal. When Goodyear first produced the AquaTred, the company I worked for tested the tire both the correct direction and the wrong direction, and only got a 10% difference. So an non-directional tire would only be 5%. I think tires can be 30 or 40% different.
Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
Directional tires seem to make a big difference in rain-the Aquatred/TripleTred design (shared by the Michelin Pilot) seems to be great in heavy rain, a wider one of that style would be MUCH better in rain than a generic all season radial.
Not all Michelin Pilot models are directional. I think most these days are asymmetric without any "dead ends" where a good amount of water can be trapped.
The Pilot Sport A/S Plus was just replaced by the Pilot Sport A/S 3. Apparetly some like the non-directional version for certain benefits when rotating. I think it might be to do a reverse cross or to take care of certain known wear issues with a particular car.
I was told the most important thing was a tire designed so that water is evacuated properly. I remember a set of Dunlop D60M2, which were directional. They evacuated pretty well down the center, but the outside directional pattern abruptly ended at the outside shoulders before reaching the edge of the tire. So that trapped some water there. It was a heck of a dry road tire, but I found it would hydroplane easily.
Directional tires seem to make a big difference in rain-the Aquatred/TripleTred design (shared by the Michelin Pilot) seems to be great in heavy rain, a wider one of that style would be MUCH better in rain than a generic all season radial.
Not all Michelin Pilot models are directional. I think most these days are asymmetric without any "dead ends" where a good amount of water can be trapped.
The Pilot Sport A/S Plus was just replaced by the Pilot Sport A/S 3. Apparetly some like the non-directional version for certain benefits when rotating. I think it might be to do a reverse cross or to take care of certain known wear issues with a particular car.
I was told the most important thing was a tire designed so that water is evacuated properly. I remember a set of Dunlop D60M2, which were directional. They evacuated pretty well down the center, but the outside directional pattern abruptly ended at the outside shoulders before reaching the edge of the tire. So that trapped some water there. It was a heck of a dry road tire, but I found it would hydroplane easily.
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