Best protection against Ethanol ?

[TiredTrucker]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Ethanol has a much worse reputation than it deserves as an additive. Its terrible as an alternative fuel, as E85 proves, but it does a lot of good as an additive. Its a good octane booster, its a great water remover and prevents corrosion as a result, and its a decent fuel system cleaner. Once you remove the few rubber components from OLD vehicles that are susceptible to damage, it does not cause any issues.

Yes, it lowers gas mileage. So do many additives in gasoline, to one degree or another. So did MTBE when it was used as ethanol is now, just not nearly as much since it had a higher energy density. But given its high toxicity and habit of seeking-and-destroying ground water, I'll take the ethanol. Ethanol's worst feature (IMO) is that it shortens the shelf (tank) life of gasoline more than most other oxygenate additives do.




Depending on the engine. For the standard flex fuel engine that has been designed primarily for gasoline, but allows use of E85, you would be somewhat correct. For the newer designed Ricardo EBDI V6 and the Cummins 2.8L E85 engines that are just around the corner, your statements would be in error. Those engines are giving even their diesel counterparts a run for their money in HP, Torque, and fuel economy. They are offering the power of N/A gas engine over twice their displacement and giving higher mpg numbers to boot.

The problem with economy is not the fuel, it is the engine design. To get most out of a fuel, the engine needs to be designed primarily to run it.

As for issues with ethanol, many of us in Iowa have used E10 since it started showing up in the late 70's. I have not had any fuel related issues with it, nor have I seen first hand any fuel related issues, except some early filter plugging that occurred as the ethanol cleaned out the fuel systems. Virtually every negative issue has more to do with operator error than the fuel. I have used it for years in various JD riding and zero turn lawn mowers without ever an issue. I will concede that some 2 strokes have a problem with it when it is stored improperly.

 

[HangFire]

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
I will concede that some 2 strokes have a problem with it when it is stored improperly.


"Yes" on the 2-stroke issue.

E10 fuel on a little-used modern vehicle can also result in some very unhappy engines due to the Ethanol grabbing humidity and phase separating, resulting in an engine at startup trying to run on the Ethanol and Water at the bottom of a tank. This is from personal experience with my pickup truck. I run it more often now, use Methanol (dry gas) and get an occassional E-Free fillup, that solved the problem.

 

[Yah-Tah-Hey]

I have been using E 10 for years and have never had a problem. Nor have I heard of any problems due to using E 10.

 

[davison0976]

Having 10% Ethanol reduces energy content of the fuel by only 0.29%. For all practical purposes that's as good as 0%.

Also, people drink 80 proof (40% ethanol) vodka and their intestines don't dissolve, nor had I ever seen a cloudy plastic vodka bottle in a liquor store where ethanol somehow affected the plastic. Hard to imagine automobile fuel system which is made to handle such solvents as gasoline could be affected by ethanol.

Finally, I don't think anyone would had passed a legislation mandating Ethanol additive if there were any negative side effects. Do you realize what liability that would had been. I am sure a lot of studies were done to confirm Ethanol causes no harm before such mandate was issued.

If anything we should be embracing Ethanol gas and asking for 15% Ethanol, and in doing so supporting the initiative for energy independence of our country.

I've never had ethanol related problem in any of my vehicles, and in NJ all gas contains 10% Ethanol. I wouldn't waste any money on anit-Ethanol additives. I think it all is a myth.

 

[HangFire]

That all sounds great, as long as you totally ignore the hygroscopic and phase separation properties of Ethanol in Gasoline.

I'm also so happy for you that you trust our legislators so much. I trust them to do what's profitable for their constituents and their fund raisers, in this case MidWestern corn farmers.

 

[spasm3]

Originally Posted By: davison0976

If anything we should be embracing Ethanol gas and asking for 15% Ethanol, and in doing so supporting the initiative for energy independence of our country.



No thanks. I burn the ethanol fuel during the summer, but for winter storage i find non ethanol for my ope.
I get better mpg with non ethanol fuel.

 

[davison0976]

Originally Posted By: HangFire
That all sounds great, as long as you totally ignore the hygroscopic and phase separation properties of Ethanol in Gasoline.

I'm also so happy for you that you trust our legislators so much. I trust them to do what's profitable for their constituents and their fund raisers, in this case MidWestern corn farmers.


To avoid any miscommunication I think you actually meant separation of water from the Ethanol/Gasoline mixture when such mixture is contaminated with water. Because Ethanol by itself mixes well with gas without any separation. There are E10 (10% EtOH) all the way up to E85 (85% EtOH) and higher mixtures that remain homogeneous, i.e. no phase separation.

As far as water contamination, well I wouldn't be buying eggs at a supermarket if they were stacked by a pizza oven instead of being in a refrigerator. Same idea goes for gas stations and gasoline. Gas stations follow strict procedures to avoid water contamination. If they don't follow any procedures then gas can be contaminated with anything. How can anyone be trusted then?

But this is where Ethanol plays to our advantage too. Given that gasoline will be exposed to some moisture no matter how tight the gasoline storage safekeeping procedures are, Ethanol will help to absorb that moisture without causing phase separation which would had occurred otherwise. Or, imagine your tank is 1/4 full. The other 3/4 is fuel vapor part of which is moisture vapor (it has been a humid weather say). Then temperature drops and that humid air condenses into water. Presence of Ethanol allows that water to mix with the remaining 1/4 of the fuel. Without any Ethanol that water would be on the bottom of your tank.

Of course, if someone likes to keep his/her fuel cap open, then sure gas containing Ethanol will absorb as much moisture from the air as it can. But provided you don't expose your gas to more moisture than necessary Ethanol only helps to avoid water in your fuel system. Doesn't anyone remember the days when we used to have non-Ethanol gas and fuel systems would suffer from water contamination?

 

[davison0976]

Originally Posted By: spasm3
Originally Posted By: davison0976

If anything we should be embracing Ethanol gas and asking for 15% Ethanol, and in doing so supporting the initiative for energy independence of our country.



No thanks. I burn the ethanol fuel during the summer, but for winter storage i find non ethanol for my ope.
I get better mpg with non ethanol fuel.


Doesn't make any sense. You know why? Because in the winter there is less moisture in the air. If anything you should be using non-Ethanol gas in the summer if you follow your own logic.

Show me your mpg log for a year. The better mpg is all in your head.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: davison0976
Finally, I don't think anyone would had passed a legislation mandating Ethanol additive if there were any negative side effects. Do you realize what liability that would had been. I am sure a lot of studies were done to confirm Ethanol causes no harm before such mandate was issued.

While I think there's a lot of senseless scare-mongering about the effects of ethanol on fuel systems and fuel economy, the various legislation that mandated fuel additives actually mandated an oxygenate. There was a time when the majority of that oxygenate sold in the US was MTBE. That didn't exactly work out.

However, MTBE at the time was cheaper and considered more compatible with gasoline. It's harm wasn't really to fuel systems or engines.

And I've mentioned that ethanol is the simplest and cheapest octane booster available.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker

Depending on the engine.
The problem with economy is not the fuel, it is the engine design. To get most out of a fuel, the engine needs to be designed primarily to run it.


This is the point. Most of our engines today have been adapted or modified to run on blended fuel.

Our newer flex fuel GM fleet trucks run flawlessly on the stuff. Never miss a beat.

My supercharged 572 in a boat loves it also. But my car and other vehicles in my stable lose significant mileage to it, and in some cases even more than expected.

While ethanol may be here to stay, its source remains in question as to its true contribution to our energy independence. There's a lot of hooey associated with its promotion as well. Notable examples right here in this thread! Kool aid laced with ethanol is very delicious evidently.

Score one for the corn lobby. A great idea that cost very little to lobby into place, and a wonderful source of INCOME for decades. Wish I had such a guaranteed market for my services!

 

[SHOZ]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker

Depending on the engine.
The problem with economy is not the fuel, it is the engine design. To get most out of a fuel, the engine needs to be designed primarily to run it.


This is the point. Most of our engines today have been adapted or modified to run on blended fuel.

Our newer flex fuel GM fleet trucks run flawlessly on the stuff. Never miss a beat.

My supercharged 572 in a boat loves it also. But my car and other vehicles in my stable lose significant mileage to it, and in some cases even more than expected.

While ethanol may be here to stay, its source remains in question as to its true contribution to our energy independence. There's a lot of hooey associated with its promotion as well. Notable examples right here in this thread! Kool aid laced with ethanol is very delicious evidently.

Score one for the corn lobby. A great idea that cost very little to lobby into place, and a wonderful source of INCOME for decades. Wish I had such a guaranteed market for my services!


The mandated use of ethanol via the renewable fuels act is the same as a federal subsidy. I agree it creates a forced market. Good thing there will be a huge surplus of corn this year.

 

[HangFire]

Originally Posted By: davison0976
Of course, if someone likes to keep his/her fuel cap open, then sure gas containing Ethanol will absorb as much moisture from the air as it can. But provided you don't expose your gas to more moisture than necessary Ethanol only helps to avoid water in your fuel system. Doesn't anyone remember the days when we used to have non-Ethanol gas and fuel systems would suffer from water contamination?


Cute.

My gas cap is tight, I'll get a code if it's not. When cars burn gas, the volume in the tank has to be replaced by something - and that something is air. Air on Planet Earth contains moisture, more in some areas than other.

Phase separation occurs when water and Ethanol go to the bottom of the tank together. If water is not present, yeah, Ethanol mixes with gasoline just great.

Seldom-used gravity fed OPE is particularly vulnerable. It's not the Ethanol that kills the carbs, it's the water. After sitting with water in the carb float bowl for months, for some reason they just don't want to run.

I've cleaned, rebuilt, and replaced enough small engine carbs that I'm not even going to argue about it. E10 aggressively absorbs moisture, the water settles to the bottom, corrosion cruds up the tiny passages. It happens, it's a fact, there's no debate. Again if you run your OPE engines every week, you may never see a problem with it. For snow blowers or lawn mowers with short mowing seasons in humid Winter areas, there can be problems.

After sitting for two weeks with half a tank or less of E10, or one week with rain, and no dry gas, my truck runs like [censored] for one to three minutes after startup. This has been repeatable behavior since it went to non-daily-driver status 4 years ago. It still happens when I'm not able to get to the E-Free station for a while. It is fully preventable with dry gas and/or E-Free fillups.

My cars run on the same E10 from the same stations and they run fine because they are run daily. So I fully understand people who say they have no problem. I have no argument with them, because I have no problem with E10 in my daily drivers.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
While ethanol may be here to stay, its source remains in question as to its true contribution to our energy independence. There's a lot of hooey associated with its promotion as well. Notable examples right here in this thread! Kool aid laced with ethanol is very delicious evidently.

No thanks. I prefer my beer to be laced with ethanol.

 

[CentAmDL650]

I run TC-W3 in my motorcycle and MMO in my truck. Compared to most other similar ones on Fuelly.com, I'm above the highest average mpg of any similar bike, and not far from it with the truck. Idle was nicely improved on the truck, I'm guessing the fuel injectors had some slight sticking issues and the fuel pump runs freer with lubricant in the gas. Maybe the dearomitized kerosene content raises the octane level a little bit, too.

Don't know what they do to the O2 sensors or the cats, but they start rapidly and are responsive even when cold.

E-degraded fuel seems to cost me 4-6% in mileage, but I don't actively seek out E-0, because nothing I have ever sits that long. And I put MMO in the OPE fuel, including 2 stroke stuff, which seems to prevent corrosion and gumming up the fuel delivery system.

 

[TiredTrucker]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ

The mandated use of ethanol via the renewable fuels act is the same as a federal subsidy. I agree it creates a forced market. Good thing there will be a huge surplus of corn this year.


And low corn prices to boot! Makes ethanol a very cost effective fuel. And combined with lower gas prices now, we are all benefitting across the board. There are many "forced' markets across the spectrum due to government intrusion. Ethanol seems to be a cause celeb and catches a large amount of ire for some reason. Would be nice if the public put at much effort into squawking about the myriads of other things they have to pay for due to government mandates. Ethanol seems pretty minor compared to some of them.

 

[SHOZ]

The original idea behind ethanol when it was sold to the public was energy independence. But it really is Archer Daniels Midland lobbing that brought it here.

If ethanol is so good and cheap, why does the government force us to use it. Would it not be there anyway without the mandate to use it? I for one would rather buy gas with no ethanol at times but I cannot do this.

Instead I have to deal with E10 gas and it's problems with water and eating up fuel line hoses on my yard equipment.

 

[The_Eric]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
While ethanol may be here to stay, its source remains in question as to its true contribution to our energy independence. There's a lot of hooey associated with its promotion as well. Notable examples right here in this thread! Kool aid laced with ethanol is very delicious evidently.

Score one for the corn lobby. A great idea that cost very little to lobby into place, and a wonderful source of INCOME for decades. Wish I had such a guaranteed market for my services!


Agreed. energy independence? Hard to believe when you have to put a pile of energy into it's production- from seed to finished product vs. what you get out.

Now that being said, I truly don't think that ethanol is the root of all evil like some state. There's plenty of reason not to like it- but it's performance isn't one of them. Too many people (myself included) have too many years/miles racked up with ZERO issues.