I tried GY TripleTred. It took seven tires to find four round enough to run smoothly. Balance was fine on all the tires. GY makes egg shaped tires.
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Tire Shop cant seem to balance tires?
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Nexen tires would be the first thing I'd look at as the source of the problem. My friend's a service writer (former Master Tech) at a Ford dealer and he refused to sell me Nexen winter tires. Every set he sold would not balance and they had to eat the cost of upgrading the customer to a better tire because they originally recommended the Nexens. He won't even special order them for a friend, they had that many problems.
Same thing with the Coopers. Two sets out of two in my family circle and both had sealing and balancing problems.
Other than that, find a Hunter balancer like everyone else has said. It will find the problem tires and you can warranty them out and fix the problems.
Same thing with the Coopers. Two sets out of two in my family circle and both had sealing and balancing problems.
Other than that, find a Hunter balancer like everyone else has said. It will find the problem tires and you can warranty them out and fix the problems.
The problem is not the balance machine, or the tech using it , or the wheel (usually... they do get bent...) , or , in most cases, even the tire.
The problem is that properly BALANCED wheel/tire assemblies can, and often do, vibrate at higher speeds... balance is only one part of the smooth equation.
i once severely flat spotted a tire locking up a wheel at high speed on dry pavement... I was young and dumb... and took the car in to a tire shop because of a vibration. The owner was kind enought to tell me how you can "balance" any wheel assembly, but that doesn't mean it will run smooth... my wheel showed nice zeros on the machine, but vibrated badly at high speeds, because the tire was not ROUND anymore. And ALL wheels and tires have some degree of out of roundness... even brand new ones.
When a car maker purchases wheels and tires, they do everything possible to get that NEW CAR ride and smoothness. These include... all wheels are measured and tested for run out , and are then MARKED at the low point. Wheels that don't meet the required spec are not used in production. Unfortunately, this mark is often a sticker, and after the car is delivered, the mark is lost forever. This is an issue when you replace the factory tires later...
Tires are similar. The car maker has specific quality specs for roundness and road force measurements, and again, tires are tested, and MARKED, a red dot shows the "stiff" spot on a tire, or the high spot. Tires that don't meet the spec are again not used for production.
So, your original wheels are measured and marked, along with your original tires, and they all meet very strict tolerances defined by the manufacturer. When they are mounted, the low spot on the wheel is matched to the high or "stiff" spot on the tire, and the assembly is tested again for smoothness on a REALLY EXPENSIVE ( 500k + ) machine. Any assembly that is outside of specs is not used.
Go to a new car lot, and look at the wheels and tires. You will often see bright green stickers on the wheel, matched exactly with the red dot on the tire. Or , sometimes a paint mark, or dimple on the wheel, again matched exactly to the red dot on the tire
Now, you need new tires... and this is where the problems can begin...
Your new tires may not be marked like the oem tires were. So you may not know where the high or stiff spot is. And, these tires may not be as precisely made as the oem tires, so that high spot may be higher, the stiff spot stiffer, so it is even more important to match them up... and your tire store may not have a clue, or not care, anyway...
Then you mount them on the factory wheels, except the sticker showing the low spot is long gone, so they are mounted blindly, not matched to anything.
They will BALANCE, but they may not run smooth. If the low spot of the wheel is not near where the high or stiff spot of the tire is, the assembly might vibrate, yet be perfectly balanced.
If you have a vibration after new tires, do the following:
Check the balance... do not REBALANCE. Most shops will remove the weights first, then re-balance the assembly. No no, Leave the weights on, and re-spin. If the machine shows zero, then you know it is not the "balance", but is an out of round or road force issue. And on new aftermarket tires, it usually is...
If the tire shows as balanced, rotate the tire 180 degrees on the wheel, and rebalance. This often cures a vibration issue, as you have moved the high spot on the tire to a possibly lower spot on the wheel.
Better, if possible, is to try and find a shop with a Hunter road force balancer, and a trained, patient tech to use it. These machines measure the wheel, and the tires road force, and allow the tech to better match the wheel low spot and tire high spot, and hopefully get a smooth ride out of the assembly. These machines cost about 3x or more what a regular balance machine does, and can take 2 or 3x as long to "balance" a wheel/tire assembly... so many shops don't bother.
I have had problematic tires balanced numerous times as well, and blamed the machine, or the tech, or the tire... until I learned that a tire can be properly BALANCED, but not run smooth and free of vibration.
The problem is that properly BALANCED wheel/tire assemblies can, and often do, vibrate at higher speeds... balance is only one part of the smooth equation.
i once severely flat spotted a tire locking up a wheel at high speed on dry pavement... I was young and dumb... and took the car in to a tire shop because of a vibration. The owner was kind enought to tell me how you can "balance" any wheel assembly, but that doesn't mean it will run smooth... my wheel showed nice zeros on the machine, but vibrated badly at high speeds, because the tire was not ROUND anymore. And ALL wheels and tires have some degree of out of roundness... even brand new ones.
When a car maker purchases wheels and tires, they do everything possible to get that NEW CAR ride and smoothness. These include... all wheels are measured and tested for run out , and are then MARKED at the low point. Wheels that don't meet the required spec are not used in production. Unfortunately, this mark is often a sticker, and after the car is delivered, the mark is lost forever. This is an issue when you replace the factory tires later...
Tires are similar. The car maker has specific quality specs for roundness and road force measurements, and again, tires are tested, and MARKED, a red dot shows the "stiff" spot on a tire, or the high spot. Tires that don't meet the spec are again not used for production.
So, your original wheels are measured and marked, along with your original tires, and they all meet very strict tolerances defined by the manufacturer. When they are mounted, the low spot on the wheel is matched to the high or "stiff" spot on the tire, and the assembly is tested again for smoothness on a REALLY EXPENSIVE ( 500k + ) machine. Any assembly that is outside of specs is not used.
Go to a new car lot, and look at the wheels and tires. You will often see bright green stickers on the wheel, matched exactly with the red dot on the tire. Or , sometimes a paint mark, or dimple on the wheel, again matched exactly to the red dot on the tire
Now, you need new tires... and this is where the problems can begin...
Your new tires may not be marked like the oem tires were. So you may not know where the high or stiff spot is. And, these tires may not be as precisely made as the oem tires, so that high spot may be higher, the stiff spot stiffer, so it is even more important to match them up... and your tire store may not have a clue, or not care, anyway...
Then you mount them on the factory wheels, except the sticker showing the low spot is long gone, so they are mounted blindly, not matched to anything.
They will BALANCE, but they may not run smooth. If the low spot of the wheel is not near where the high or stiff spot of the tire is, the assembly might vibrate, yet be perfectly balanced.
If you have a vibration after new tires, do the following:
Check the balance... do not REBALANCE. Most shops will remove the weights first, then re-balance the assembly. No no, Leave the weights on, and re-spin. If the machine shows zero, then you know it is not the "balance", but is an out of round or road force issue. And on new aftermarket tires, it usually is...
If the tire shows as balanced, rotate the tire 180 degrees on the wheel, and rebalance. This often cures a vibration issue, as you have moved the high spot on the tire to a possibly lower spot on the wheel.
Better, if possible, is to try and find a shop with a Hunter road force balancer, and a trained, patient tech to use it. These machines measure the wheel, and the tires road force, and allow the tech to better match the wheel low spot and tire high spot, and hopefully get a smooth ride out of the assembly. These machines cost about 3x or more what a regular balance machine does, and can take 2 or 3x as long to "balance" a wheel/tire assembly... so many shops don't bother.
I have had problematic tires balanced numerous times as well, and blamed the machine, or the tech, or the tire... until I learned that a tire can be properly BALANCED, but not run smooth and free of vibration.
And, some tires, due to manufacturing issues , will NEVER run smooth. They are are either too far out of round, or the road force variation is too high. They will BALANCE, however... If you do not try and road force balance a defective tire, you will never know it is the tire. You will blame the shop, or the balance machine, or the tire tech etc. The shop will blame your wheel, or your car etc....
Rumour has it that one car maker actually spec'd intentionally off center wheels to better match mount tires... not sure if that one is true.
BALANCED does not always mean SMOOTH...!
Rumour has it that one car maker actually spec'd intentionally off center wheels to better match mount tires... not sure if that one is true.
BALANCED does not always mean SMOOTH...!
Geeman789 did a really good job of describing the situation
- BUT -
I am going to take issue with one part.
For practical purposes, it is possible to get reasonably smooth ride out of every tire - assuming the vehicle is capable (some aren't)
First let me talk about the problems the vehicle can cause in vibrations:
1) In addition to the wheel and tire needing to be balanced, all the other rotating parts needs to be balanced as well. That means brake rotors (drums), hubs, drive shaft, etc. If you have a "busy" car, it is difficult to sort out all the sources of vibration - particularly to isolate the wheels and tires. Plus sometimes other components vibrate at the same frequency as the wheels and tires.
2) The engine sends down pulses of power down the driveshaft - which are sources of vibrating.
3) Engines themselves vibrate.
4) Roads are never smooth
5) Parts of the vehicle vibrate in sympathy with engine, drivetrain, road input, and other sources of vibration, over-empathizing the vibration.
And about getting EVERY tire is be smooth.
As Geeman789 said, it is possible to match the high point of the tire with the low point of the wheel to get a "rounder" assembly. For practical purposes, you can take a very bad tire and mate it with a very bad wheel and get a smooth riding assembly.
So it's a matter of degree and how good the wheels are and how well the out of round wheels are matched to the out of round tires.
- BUT -
I am going to take issue with one part.
For practical purposes, it is possible to get reasonably smooth ride out of every tire - assuming the vehicle is capable (some aren't)
First let me talk about the problems the vehicle can cause in vibrations:
1) In addition to the wheel and tire needing to be balanced, all the other rotating parts needs to be balanced as well. That means brake rotors (drums), hubs, drive shaft, etc. If you have a "busy" car, it is difficult to sort out all the sources of vibration - particularly to isolate the wheels and tires. Plus sometimes other components vibrate at the same frequency as the wheels and tires.
2) The engine sends down pulses of power down the driveshaft - which are sources of vibrating.
3) Engines themselves vibrate.
4) Roads are never smooth
5) Parts of the vehicle vibrate in sympathy with engine, drivetrain, road input, and other sources of vibration, over-empathizing the vibration.
And about getting EVERY tire is be smooth.
As Geeman789 said, it is possible to match the high point of the tire with the low point of the wheel to get a "rounder" assembly. For practical purposes, you can take a very bad tire and mate it with a very bad wheel and get a smooth riding assembly.
So it's a matter of degree and how good the wheels are and how well the out of round wheels are matched to the out of round tires.
Originally Posted By: geeman789
.....Rumour has it that one car maker actually spec'd intentionally off center wheels to better match mount tires... not sure if that one is true......
Allow me to confirm that not only was this true, but it was common throughout the car manufacturers. They used to request tire production data so they could assess how much to offset the wheel.
To my knowledge, they still do it - although it has reached the point where the offset is pretty small.
.....Rumour has it that one car maker actually spec'd intentionally off center wheels to better match mount tires... not sure if that one is true......
Allow me to confirm that not only was this true, but it was common throughout the car manufacturers. They used to request tire production data so they could assess how much to offset the wheel.
To my knowledge, they still do it - although it has reached the point where the offset is pretty small.
Originally Posted By: satinsilver
Plug in your zip to find the closest shop with a Hunter Road Force Balancer:
http://www.gsp9700.com/search/findgsp9700.cfm
LOL! One of the closest places to me that has a GSP9700 is the GM Milford Proving Grounds.
I wondered what they'd say if I showed up at the front gate and asked about wheel balancing services...
Plug in your zip to find the closest shop with a Hunter Road Force Balancer:
http://www.gsp9700.com/search/findgsp9700.cfm
LOL! One of the closest places to me that has a GSP9700 is the GM Milford Proving Grounds.
I wondered what they'd say if I showed up at the front gate and asked about wheel balancing services...
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Originally Posted By: geeman789
.....Rumour has it that one car maker actually spec'd intentionally off center wheels to better match mount tires... not sure if that one is true......
Allow me to confirm that not only was this true, but it was common throughout the car manufacturers. They used to request tire production data so they could assess how much to offset the wheel.
To my knowledge, they still do it - although it has reached the point where the offset is pretty small.
CapriRacer, do aftermarket steel wheels typically have more offset or radial runout than aftermarket alloy wheels?
Originally Posted By: geeman789
.....Rumour has it that one car maker actually spec'd intentionally off center wheels to better match mount tires... not sure if that one is true......
Allow me to confirm that not only was this true, but it was common throughout the car manufacturers. They used to request tire production data so they could assess how much to offset the wheel.
To my knowledge, they still do it - although it has reached the point where the offset is pretty small.
CapriRacer, do aftermarket steel wheels typically have more offset or radial runout than aftermarket alloy wheels?
My Kia came with the adhesive from the green sticker dots still on the wheels matched with the red road force dots on the tires. (Yes, the detail guy should have cleaned them, but I'm glad he didn't.) I rounded the tip of a center punch and put a small dimple on the wheel rim (not enough to set up a hard point that might crack), and put a drop of dark gray paint on that spot on the light silver gray wheel. Now, when I go to a tire shop, I can put a masking tape arrow with a red dot on that spot and have the tire shop match-mount the tires if they have the red ink dot. If they don't, I'll have them put the yellow light-spot dot by the valve. If they don't have any dots, dot's OK.
The next time I have my motorcycle tires off, I'll try to get a minute with the bare wheel on the balancer, use a dial indicator on the inner rim surface, and see if I can find a low spot there. Some motorcycle tires have the red dots, many have the yellow dots.
The next time I have my motorcycle tires off, I'll try to get a minute with the bare wheel on the balancer, use a dial indicator on the inner rim surface, and see if I can find a low spot there. Some motorcycle tires have the red dots, many have the yellow dots.
Originally Posted By: Ken2
My Kia came with the adhesive from the green sticker dots still on the wheels matched with the red road force dots on the tires. (Yes, the detail guy should have cleaned them, but I'm glad he didn't.) I rounded the tip of a center punch and put a small dimple on the wheel rim (not enough to set up a hard point that might crack), and put a drop of dark gray paint on that spot on the light silver gray wheel. Now, when I go to a tire shop, I can put a masking tape arrow with a red dot on that spot and have the tire shop match-mount the tires if they have the red ink dot. If they don't, I'll have them put the yellow light-spot dot by the valve. If they don't have any dots, dot's OK.
I always ask the shop what the dots on the tire are actually for...!?
I find it's a good way to get a feel for the shop.... if they know what they mean, thats usually a good sign...
If they don't, or tell you their not important, or get defensive and tell you that THEY are the experts, not you... you might want to shop around a little more...!
My Kia came with the adhesive from the green sticker dots still on the wheels matched with the red road force dots on the tires. (Yes, the detail guy should have cleaned them, but I'm glad he didn't.) I rounded the tip of a center punch and put a small dimple on the wheel rim (not enough to set up a hard point that might crack), and put a drop of dark gray paint on that spot on the light silver gray wheel. Now, when I go to a tire shop, I can put a masking tape arrow with a red dot on that spot and have the tire shop match-mount the tires if they have the red ink dot. If they don't, I'll have them put the yellow light-spot dot by the valve. If they don't have any dots, dot's OK.
I always ask the shop what the dots on the tire are actually for...!?
I find it's a good way to get a feel for the shop.... if they know what they mean, thats usually a good sign...
If they don't, or tell you their not important, or get defensive and tell you that THEY are the experts, not you... you might want to shop around a little more...!
Originally Posted By: SubLGT
CapriRacer, do aftermarket steel wheels typically have more offset or radial runout than aftermarket alloy wheels?
I don't know, but I suspect they have none at all. In other words, any low point of the wheel is in the normal variation and is not deliberate.
CapriRacer, do aftermarket steel wheels typically have more offset or radial runout than aftermarket alloy wheels?
I don't know, but I suspect they have none at all. In other words, any low point of the wheel is in the normal variation and is not deliberate.
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Originally Posted By: SubLGT
CapriRacer, do aftermarket steel wheels typically have more offset or radial runout than aftermarket alloy wheels?
I don't know, but I suspect they have none at all. In other words, any low point of the wheel is in the normal variation and is not deliberate.
I just realized I didn't answer your question - I answered a different question.
Backing up: First, I don't think ANY aftermarket wheel manufacturer deliberately builds a wheel out of round - unlike the OE wheels.
Second, I think that steel wheels would be worse than alloy wheels for runout - partially because of the difference in the way they are manufactured and partially because of the difference in how well those pieces of equipment are maintained - both favoring the alloy wheel.
Having said that, I think it would be foolish to assume that A particular alloy wheel is better than A particular steel wheel. There are just too many variables.
Originally Posted By: SubLGT
CapriRacer, do aftermarket steel wheels typically have more offset or radial runout than aftermarket alloy wheels?
I don't know, but I suspect they have none at all. In other words, any low point of the wheel is in the normal variation and is not deliberate.
I just realized I didn't answer your question - I answered a different question.
Backing up: First, I don't think ANY aftermarket wheel manufacturer deliberately builds a wheel out of round - unlike the OE wheels.
Second, I think that steel wheels would be worse than alloy wheels for runout - partially because of the difference in the way they are manufactured and partially because of the difference in how well those pieces of equipment are maintained - both favoring the alloy wheel.
Having said that, I think it would be foolish to assume that A particular alloy wheel is better than A particular steel wheel. There are just too many variables.
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
…………...Backing up: First, I don't think ANY aftermarket wheel manufacturer deliberately builds a wheel out of round - unlike the OE wheels………..
I wish the aftermarket wheels did have a bit of radial offset in them. Several times with new tires I have not been able to get an effective road force match mounting with my aftermarket wheels, because the wheels are too close to perfectly round. So I had to resort to the time consuming process of tire replacement, often requiring multiple trips to the dealer, before I can get a tire/wheel assembly with a road force value at 16lb or lower.
Seems to me it would be desirable for all wheels, OE and aftermarket, to have a standard amount of radial offset (to be decided by tire and wheel industry experts). IMO as a tire consumer, tires still need a lot more improvement in their uniformity, and until that day arrives, we need "imperfect" wheels that can be successfully match mounted to the "imperfect" tires that we can buy today.
…………...Backing up: First, I don't think ANY aftermarket wheel manufacturer deliberately builds a wheel out of round - unlike the OE wheels………..
I wish the aftermarket wheels did have a bit of radial offset in them. Several times with new tires I have not been able to get an effective road force match mounting with my aftermarket wheels, because the wheels are too close to perfectly round. So I had to resort to the time consuming process of tire replacement, often requiring multiple trips to the dealer, before I can get a tire/wheel assembly with a road force value at 16lb or lower.
Seems to me it would be desirable for all wheels, OE and aftermarket, to have a standard amount of radial offset (to be decided by tire and wheel industry experts). IMO as a tire consumer, tires still need a lot more improvement in their uniformity, and until that day arrives, we need "imperfect" wheels that can be successfully match mounted to the "imperfect" tires that we can buy today.
Originally Posted By: Lapham3
.....But yes, uniformity that affects driveabilty issues still seems spotty to me.
Part of the problem is that it is a lot easier for a vehicle manufacturer to make the chassis stiffer (which makes the vehicle more sensitive) than it is to improve tire uniformity.
The other part of the problem is priority. Tire manufacturers need a financial incentive to justify the upgrade in equipment needed to improve uniformity - and while vibration returns are the highest return reason, the percentage is pretty low. Not enough to justify (by itself) the upgrade cost. What usually happens is that the upgrade is tied to maintenance overhaul.
.....But yes, uniformity that affects driveabilty issues still seems spotty to me.
Part of the problem is that it is a lot easier for a vehicle manufacturer to make the chassis stiffer (which makes the vehicle more sensitive) than it is to improve tire uniformity.
The other part of the problem is priority. Tire manufacturers need a financial incentive to justify the upgrade in equipment needed to improve uniformity - and while vibration returns are the highest return reason, the percentage is pretty low. Not enough to justify (by itself) the upgrade cost. What usually happens is that the upgrade is tied to maintenance overhaul.
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Lapham3 said:………….. while vibration returns are the highest return reason, the percentage is pretty low……...
What do tire manufacturers do with vibration returns? Last year I had to return three (!) Nokian winter tires for vibration caused by excessive road force variation.
Most shops don't spend enough time on balancing and alignments to get them right.
Originally Posted By: SubLGT
What do tire manufacturers do with vibration returns? Last year I had to return three (!) Nokian winter tires for vibration caused by excessive road force variation.
I could tell you what my former employer did, but I'm going to assume that every manufacturer is different. So I'll give you the possibilities:
1) They could just scrap the returns, thinking of them as a cost of doing business.
2) They could measure them, with the idea of making an improvement. Those of you who are statistically minded will be able to see that you could figure out what the production distribution looks like and then calculate how an improvement in the process would affect the returns - and therefore the cost reduction for the returns.
It would also be possible to analyze some of them to see what component is causing the issue.
3) They could also sell them as used tires.
What do tire manufacturers do with vibration returns? Last year I had to return three (!) Nokian winter tires for vibration caused by excessive road force variation.
I could tell you what my former employer did, but I'm going to assume that every manufacturer is different. So I'll give you the possibilities:
1) They could just scrap the returns, thinking of them as a cost of doing business.
2) They could measure them, with the idea of making an improvement. Those of you who are statistically minded will be able to see that you could figure out what the production distribution looks like and then calculate how an improvement in the process would affect the returns - and therefore the cost reduction for the returns.
It would also be possible to analyze some of them to see what component is causing the issue.
3) They could also sell them as used tires.
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