Google these words: citric acid catalytic converter
Removing burnt on RotellaT syn oil from cat/O2
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Originally Posted By: JAG
Google these words: citric acid catalytic converter
Study found to clean diesel cats in Europe. Works on the internet in USA to clean gas cats. Found lots of things on google that the internet says works. You would think of the study that found citric acid cleaned diesel cats in Europe would try a study on gas cats to see if it works???
I will be trying the citric acid but would rather find a product that would really remove the phosphorus chemically, that is if there is such a product.
Google these words: citric acid catalytic converter
Study found to clean diesel cats in Europe. Works on the internet in USA to clean gas cats. Found lots of things on google that the internet says works. You would think of the study that found citric acid cleaned diesel cats in Europe would try a study on gas cats to see if it works???
I will be trying the citric acid but would rather find a product that would really remove the phosphorus chemically, that is if there is such a product.
Originally Posted By: landtoy80
Originally Posted By: JAG
Google these words: citric acid catalytic converter
Study found to clean diesel cats in Europe. Works on the internet in USA to clean gas cats. Found lots of things on google that the internet says works. You would think of the study that found citric acid cleaned diesel cats in Europe would try a study on gas cats to see if it works???
I will be trying the citric acid but would rather find a product that would really remove the phosphorus chemically, that is if there is such a product.
Wouldn't the citric acid technically be chemically cleaning the at if in fact that works.
And if so imagine the costs savings if that part of the exhaust doesn't require replacement
Originally Posted By: JAG
Google these words: citric acid catalytic converter
Study found to clean diesel cats in Europe. Works on the internet in USA to clean gas cats. Found lots of things on google that the internet says works. You would think of the study that found citric acid cleaned diesel cats in Europe would try a study on gas cats to see if it works???
I will be trying the citric acid but would rather find a product that would really remove the phosphorus chemically, that is if there is such a product.
Wouldn't the citric acid technically be chemically cleaning the at if in fact that works.
And if so imagine the costs savings if that part of the exhaust doesn't require replacement
Here is a patten to keep phosphorus from the cat.
http://www.google.com/patents/US4381755
http://www.google.com/patents/US4381755
Looks like its well known that accumulation of fuels and lubricants on catalytic surfaces reduces a catalyst’s effectiveness.
http://www.ecooptimized.com/index.php/ga...ctivation-.html
This is what must be happening in my oil burner.
Lube Oil Poisons and Inhibitors:
Lube oils can enter into the exhaust system by leaking through worn out piston rings, faulty valve seals, failed gaskets and/or warped engine components. Fouling occurs when lube oil emissions coat the catalyst with carbon soot. Carbon deposits prevent the catalytic converter from reducing harmful emissions, and they also reduce air flow. Reduced air flow increases engine backpressure and can force heat and exhaust gasses back into the engine compartment. In some cases, the engine may actually draw back exhaust gasses into the combustion chamber. Re-entrance of exhaust gases into the combustion chamber reduces subsequent combustion cycle efficiency. Reduced cycle efficiencies result in a loss of power, increased emissions, and overheating of engine components (25).
The process of a catalyst being coated with carbon soot is technically referred to as “coke formation”. In technical terms, coke formation is a phenomenon during which carbonaceous residues cover the catalyt’s active sites and decrease the catalyst’s active surface area. A primary cause of “pore blockage” is caused when coke formations are so large that carbon blocks the internal pores of the catalyst, thereby prohibiting airflow
Phosphorus, zinc, calcium and magnesium are the most common impurities found in lubrication oils. Like sulfur, these substances accumulate on the catalyst’s surface and compete with other exhaust pollutants for surface area (26). These substances are generally regarded as catalyst inhibitors, rather than catalyst poisons. All of them however, decrease catalytic efficiency and can potentially cause harm to the engine.
http://www.ecooptimized.com/index.php/ga...ctivation-.html
This is what must be happening in my oil burner.
Lube Oil Poisons and Inhibitors:
Lube oils can enter into the exhaust system by leaking through worn out piston rings, faulty valve seals, failed gaskets and/or warped engine components. Fouling occurs when lube oil emissions coat the catalyst with carbon soot. Carbon deposits prevent the catalytic converter from reducing harmful emissions, and they also reduce air flow. Reduced air flow increases engine backpressure and can force heat and exhaust gasses back into the engine compartment. In some cases, the engine may actually draw back exhaust gasses into the combustion chamber. Re-entrance of exhaust gases into the combustion chamber reduces subsequent combustion cycle efficiency. Reduced cycle efficiencies result in a loss of power, increased emissions, and overheating of engine components (25).
The process of a catalyst being coated with carbon soot is technically referred to as “coke formation”. In technical terms, coke formation is a phenomenon during which carbonaceous residues cover the catalyt’s active sites and decrease the catalyst’s active surface area. A primary cause of “pore blockage” is caused when coke formations are so large that carbon blocks the internal pores of the catalyst, thereby prohibiting airflow
Phosphorus, zinc, calcium and magnesium are the most common impurities found in lubrication oils. Like sulfur, these substances accumulate on the catalyst’s surface and compete with other exhaust pollutants for surface area (26). These substances are generally regarded as catalyst inhibitors, rather than catalyst poisons. All of them however, decrease catalytic efficiency and can potentially cause harm to the engine.
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Since when are phosphorus, zinc, calcium, and magnesium impurities in engine oils? They're additives. They may contribute to catalytic converter issues, but they're decidedly not impurities in the oil.
Assuming you have the 4.5ltr petrol (you still never mentioned what engine you had in it)
According to my system the recommended oils are
Engine oil API SJ,SL SAE 20W-40 Above -10 °C
Engine oil API SJ,SL SAE 20W-50 Above -10 °C
Engine oil API SJ,SL SAE 10W-30 Above -20 °C
Engine oil API SJ,SL SAE 10W-40 Above -20 °C
Engine oil API SJ,SL SAE 10W-50 Above -20 °C
Engine oil API SJ,SL SAE 5W-30 Below 10 °C
Engine oil API SJ,SL SAE 30 Above 5 °C
Engine oil API SJ,SL SAE 20W From -10 °C to 15 °C
You mention that it smokes a lot on start up so why not try the 10w-40 API SJ,SL recommended and see if it reduces oil consumption.
The oil consumption is the problem as it's sending too much oil through the exhaust system in turn loading your cat with zddp. Ideally you need fix the oil consumption and then deal with the cat.
http://www.cataclean.com/
We've used these before but I'm not sure how well they work on zddp.
According to my system the recommended oils are
Engine oil API SJ,SL SAE 20W-40 Above -10 °C
Engine oil API SJ,SL SAE 20W-50 Above -10 °C
Engine oil API SJ,SL SAE 10W-30 Above -20 °C
Engine oil API SJ,SL SAE 10W-40 Above -20 °C
Engine oil API SJ,SL SAE 10W-50 Above -20 °C
Engine oil API SJ,SL SAE 5W-30 Below 10 °C
Engine oil API SJ,SL SAE 30 Above 5 °C
Engine oil API SJ,SL SAE 20W From -10 °C to 15 °C
You mention that it smokes a lot on start up so why not try the 10w-40 API SJ,SL recommended and see if it reduces oil consumption.
The oil consumption is the problem as it's sending too much oil through the exhaust system in turn loading your cat with zddp. Ideally you need fix the oil consumption and then deal with the cat.
http://www.cataclean.com/
We've used these before but I'm not sure how well they work on zddp.
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It's a 94 land cruiser 1fzfe 4.5 l inline 6 motor.
I have tried many different oils and the only oil that stopped the startup smoke was liqui moly mos2 with a can of mos oil additive. Only problem is the combo is too thick in winter. Makes it hard to turn over the motor. I now just live with T6 5w40 and mos oil additive.
I am going to try citric but wonder if doing it in an altura sonic cleaner would make it work better.
I am sure that there is a chemical or compound or process that will remove the backed on crud but no one has stumbled across it yet.
I have tried many different oils and the only oil that stopped the startup smoke was liqui moly mos2 with a can of mos oil additive. Only problem is the combo is too thick in winter. Makes it hard to turn over the motor. I now just live with T6 5w40 and mos oil additive.
I am going to try citric but wonder if doing it in an altura sonic cleaner would make it work better.
I am sure that there is a chemical or compound or process that will remove the backed on crud but no one has stumbled across it yet.
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Found a company that says they can clean a poisoned cat.
They soak cat in caustic solution then use a acidic bath.
http://www.dresser-rand.com/literature/enginuity/2188_Enginuity-Compi_catsub.pdf
citric acid must be the acidic bath. What would they be using for the caustic solution?
They soak cat in caustic solution then use a acidic bath.
http://www.dresser-rand.com/literature/enginuity/2188_Enginuity-Compi_catsub.pdf
citric acid must be the acidic bath. What would they be using for the caustic solution?
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
I'll put on my fireproof underwear and note that Shell specifically recommends that Rotella oils not be used in any vehicle with a catalytic converter.
Your 95 BMW probably called for a similar oil spec to this 94 LC. The Defy you're running has similar phosphorous numbers to the Rotella. So, what's the issue? Ask Shell what they think of using Defy in vehicles equipped with catalytic converters. I dare you.
If an LC with 411,000 miles is consuming some oil and has failed cats, I wouldn't be surprised. I also wouldn't be blaming the oil.
Hi Garak,
You must have felt strongly about this since you posted it twice.
The BMW had API SG recommended for it in really thick grades when new. I have no idea what sort of ZDDP content was typical of the time.
For all I know, the BMW does have a failing cat.
It's an OBD 1 car, so there is no O2 sensor downstream of the cat, so there are no catalyst efficiency codes.
WRT what SOPUS would say about using Defy, I think that we both already know the answer to that.
I've used 10W-40s of various brands in various catalyst applications, with their allowable higher ZDDP levels compared to thinner grades and I've also used Rotella 5W-40 in a few.
No problems ever noted, but none of the engines I used these oils in had consumption anywhere near that of this Land Crusher.
Shell really does recommend that Rotella oils not be used in catalyst equipped vehicles. They confirmed this to the owner of the wagon in question.
I wonder why that is?
Is it just a matter of the ZDDP levels, or is there something more?
I'd love to hear a full explanation from Shell, not that we'll ever get one.
I'd also like to know why the oil is dual rated if it shouldn't be used in vehicles with catalytic converters, which have been nearly universal in cars and light trucks for the past thirty five years or so.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
I'll put on my fireproof underwear and note that Shell specifically recommends that Rotella oils not be used in any vehicle with a catalytic converter.
Your 95 BMW probably called for a similar oil spec to this 94 LC. The Defy you're running has similar phosphorous numbers to the Rotella. So, what's the issue? Ask Shell what they think of using Defy in vehicles equipped with catalytic converters. I dare you.
If an LC with 411,000 miles is consuming some oil and has failed cats, I wouldn't be surprised. I also wouldn't be blaming the oil.
Hi Garak,
You must have felt strongly about this since you posted it twice.
The BMW had API SG recommended for it in really thick grades when new. I have no idea what sort of ZDDP content was typical of the time.
For all I know, the BMW does have a failing cat.
It's an OBD 1 car, so there is no O2 sensor downstream of the cat, so there are no catalyst efficiency codes.
WRT what SOPUS would say about using Defy, I think that we both already know the answer to that.
I've used 10W-40s of various brands in various catalyst applications, with their allowable higher ZDDP levels compared to thinner grades and I've also used Rotella 5W-40 in a few.
No problems ever noted, but none of the engines I used these oils in had consumption anywhere near that of this Land Crusher.
Shell really does recommend that Rotella oils not be used in catalyst equipped vehicles. They confirmed this to the owner of the wagon in question.
I wonder why that is?
Is it just a matter of the ZDDP levels, or is there something more?
I'd love to hear a full explanation from Shell, not that we'll ever get one.
I'd also like to know why the oil is dual rated if it shouldn't be used in vehicles with catalytic converters, which have been nearly universal in cars and light trucks for the past thirty five years or so.
Yes, I wanted everyone to read it, and read it twice.
Back in the day, ZDDP content could have been high, and in some oils, it certainly was. It would be naive, however, to think that there weren't some with more anemic levels.
Certainly, the consumption in this vehicle is high, but look at the mileage. It's a miracle they lasted this length of time. Even in the taxis, with LPG, and various levels of oil consumption, and the cats always at temperature, we never got anywhere near that length of time out of them. Granted, the technology was a little older, but by the time a taxi hit 400,000 miles, the cats had been long cut out.
Yep, I've said it before: if Shell is so adamant about Rotella not being used in gassers, they should get rid of the Sx spec. Rotella 5w-40 has similar specifications to Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, yet Imperial Oil has no qualms about people using it in "high performance gasoline" applications. I would have no qualms about using the Rotella, myself. I think Shell is being excessive with the CYA aspect. Imperial Oil/XOM do "encourage" people to buy an appropriate Mobil 1 product for gassers, but they don't make that much of a fuss.
Simply put, I'm technically off the reservation. My G37 manual calls for SM/GF-4 5w-30. I know, however, that specs are different in other parts of the world, and being out of warranty and having no measurable oil consumption, I have no concerns, and I have plenty of confidence in Delvac 1.
A 411,000 miles vehicle has, however, gone above and beyond the call of duty, especially on the original cats. If they can be fixed, great. If they need to be replaced or removed, so be it. Determining the cause of failure on something that's gone about double it's expected lifestyle is a bit of a wasted effort, though, I fear.
Back in the day, ZDDP content could have been high, and in some oils, it certainly was. It would be naive, however, to think that there weren't some with more anemic levels.
Certainly, the consumption in this vehicle is high, but look at the mileage. It's a miracle they lasted this length of time. Even in the taxis, with LPG, and various levels of oil consumption, and the cats always at temperature, we never got anywhere near that length of time out of them. Granted, the technology was a little older, but by the time a taxi hit 400,000 miles, the cats had been long cut out.
Yep, I've said it before: if Shell is so adamant about Rotella not being used in gassers, they should get rid of the Sx spec. Rotella 5w-40 has similar specifications to Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, yet Imperial Oil has no qualms about people using it in "high performance gasoline" applications. I would have no qualms about using the Rotella, myself. I think Shell is being excessive with the CYA aspect. Imperial Oil/XOM do "encourage" people to buy an appropriate Mobil 1 product for gassers, but they don't make that much of a fuss.
Simply put, I'm technically off the reservation. My G37 manual calls for SM/GF-4 5w-30. I know, however, that specs are different in other parts of the world, and being out of warranty and having no measurable oil consumption, I have no concerns, and I have plenty of confidence in Delvac 1.
A 411,000 miles vehicle has, however, gone above and beyond the call of duty, especially on the original cats. If they can be fixed, great. If they need to be replaced or removed, so be it. Determining the cause of failure on something that's gone about double it's expected lifestyle is a bit of a wasted effort, though, I fear.
I agree with you.
This old dear is a tribute to both old-school Toyota engineering and the OP's maintenance.
400K is nothing to sneeze at in any passenger car or light truck.
Yeah, we have a member who has about that on an old Lexus and another who did about the same on a Civic Wagon, but these are rare accomplishments.
By 200K and fifteen years or so, I feel like I've gotten my money out of any vehicle.
Clearly, there are those who demand, and get, more.
This old dear is a tribute to both old-school Toyota engineering and the OP's maintenance.
400K is nothing to sneeze at in any passenger car or light truck.
Yeah, we have a member who has about that on an old Lexus and another who did about the same on a Civic Wagon, but these are rare accomplishments.
By 200K and fifteen years or so, I feel like I've gotten my money out of any vehicle.
Clearly, there are those who demand, and get, more.
Update. 436,000 mi now. Still using T6 but will be switching to a thicker oil to try and reduce oil consumption.
I have learned that if I drive all hwy miles, I dont get check engine rich/lean codes. If I drive city miles, the check engine light will come on and its either rich or lean code. But if I do all hwy miles, the check engine light will not come on.
Its my belief that long hwy drives cleans off what ever is building up on the O2's (I dont have rear O2 so I cant tell if the cats are being cleaned). With city driving and my oil consumption, I can assume its the oil build up (ZDDP) that coats the O2's and hwy driving clean off the O2's. Both O2's are before the cats.
I dont emission test this year so I cant do a test to see how the emissions are after hwy driving and city driving.
I have learned that if I drive all hwy miles, I dont get check engine rich/lean codes. If I drive city miles, the check engine light will come on and its either rich or lean code. But if I do all hwy miles, the check engine light will not come on.
Its my belief that long hwy drives cleans off what ever is building up on the O2's (I dont have rear O2 so I cant tell if the cats are being cleaned). With city driving and my oil consumption, I can assume its the oil build up (ZDDP) that coats the O2's and hwy driving clean off the O2's. Both O2's are before the cats.
I dont emission test this year so I cant do a test to see how the emissions are after hwy driving and city driving.
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I picked up some fuel system cleaner off the shelf before, this was either in Walmart and Oreilly's, maybe both, but what struck me was in the description, it said it cleaned the O2 sensor as well.
Can't remember the brand now, and don't know how effect it is, but maybe you could look into something like that.
Something that powerful is a little scary, must be strong stuff.
Can't remember the brand now, and don't know how effect it is, but maybe you could look into something like that.
Something that powerful is a little scary, must be strong stuff.
If you dont want fire in the sensor, maybe you could run a trip with some good dose of e85. Or even tap water down the throat, the vapor expanding coukd help in the cleaning.
I was in Meijer tonight, and I saw this. Claims to cleans O2 sensors and catalytic convertors.
https://www.holley.com/products/cataclean/cataclean_-_fuel_and_exhaust_system_cleaner/parts/120007
https://www.holley.com/products/cataclean/cataclean_-_fuel_and_exhaust_system_cleaner/parts/120007
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