A Reason to AVOID Top Tier Gas?

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This thread has inspired me to check the pure gas site again to see if an E0 station has popped up around me. Score!! Just seven minutes further than my normal shell station: country mark 91 E0! It even proudly displays E0 with an American flag on the pump.

Filled up my tank but it came at a cost: 3.95/gal!!! Then again regular E10 runs 3.40-3.45 around here.

If my math is correct, I will need to get about 4.145 mpg better to break even on the cost increase. I'm at 27.1 average now on shell regular so I will need 31.245mpg. This is all winter blend so I have my doubts but I used to average 33 in this Accord before they started pumping corn into the fuel so we will see.

I will report back with the results of my E0 vs top-tier showdown...
tired.gif

Pure gas map
Looks like there are alot more E0 stations than we think!
 
I wonder about the reliability of the data on the Pure Gas website. Sure, at least some of it can be easily confirmed. But, considering all data is user submitted, it's also subject to user error.
 
I have no choice to stay away from top tier gas outlets. There are none within 45 miles of me. I am not driving 45 miles just to use the stuff. Instead, I will continue to fill up with E85 in my area. With all the other gas available near me, costing me 22 cents a mile at the mpg that it delivers, I have no desire to use it when E85, at the fuel mileage it delivers, is costing me 19 cents a mile to use. And it will keep everything a lot cleaner than any "top tier" gas stuff.

If the pricing situation ever became that it was more cost effective to use regular gas, I could always just use some Schaeffer Top Tier fuel additive and get the top tier type of thing.

http://www.schaefferoil.com/documents/36-131TT-td.pdf
 
That E85 might not be the best cost per mile, if you factored in the heavy subsidies from tax payer dollars. We may not pay for it at the pump, but we are all paying for it.
 
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker

If the pricing situation ever became that it was more cost effective to use regular gas, I could always just use some Schaeffer Top Tier fuel additive and get the top tier type of thing.


I am in complete agreement. We run the least expensive gas we can get from a very busy place and I cannot remember the last time our fleet experienced a fuel related issue of any kind...
 
Can't avoid ethanol in So Cal. I use Shell and can get it for the same price as those "value" stations. I'm sure a top tier fuel can be had at a competitive price in most towns.

I also run Gumout Regane fuel system cleaner every 3-4k miles to help combat the ethanol injector & valve train gumming.
 
Price of corn up? Corn prices are the same as they were during the Bush administration. Sure they went up a little last year, but that was due to drought conditions, especially in the Michiana area of the Midwest. But they have since dropped back down. There are EPA mandates, for sure, but not having any effect on corn prices. The average yield per acre of corn has increased by between 30% and 50% in the last 15 years. Even with no additional acreage being dedicated to corn production, Any mandates or increased use of corn has been more than covered by increased yields on existing farm ground. So the price has remained pretty consistent this century.

And even if EPA piled on the mandates, there is no waste that takes away from the food supply. 20% of the total corn crop is used for human consumption. Of the 80% left, 40% of that is used for ethanol production, and the residual dried distillers grain that is left (only the sugars and starches from the corn kernel are used for ethanol) is a highly in demand feed supplement due to it's high protein content and the beneficial quality of being highly digestible and able to help prevent intestinal colitis in livestock.

For some reason, some just love to pile on ethanol. For what reason, I have not been able to determine. Now, I am against mandates, and some have no choice in using it or not, but many places, people can pay more for the non ethanol stuff.

Ethanol is able to make it on its own. The price at the pump is reflective of what the market price for the stuff is. Obviously, living where the stuff is distilled, it is pretty cheap and worth using. And yes, E85 is more cost effective for me to use over E10 or regular gas. For those outside of the normal distillery areas, the transportation costs make for higher prices. Those folks should have a choice to not use it.

Ethanol will not gum up injectors and fuel systems. It is far better as a system cleaner than most anything on the shelf. Some might have missed this thread in another area of the forum.....

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2550069/1/Engine_wear_and_E85
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
duh, you get better mileage without alcohol. It has less energy per unit!

Top Tier is simply a standard. At least you know it meets certain minimums.

Extensive dyno work showed me that in my area the BP had the lowest knock values, thus greatest HP.


This is an old post, but has anyone else proven this to be true? We have a family friend who has an F150 with the 5.4. He swears BP gives him the best fuel economy. It always seems to be $.20-$.30 more per gallon as well.
 
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
duh, you get better mileage without alcohol. It has less energy per unit!

Top Tier is simply a standard. At least you know it meets certain minimums.

Extensive dyno work showed me that in my area the BP had the lowest knock values, thus greatest HP.


This is an old post, but has anyone else proven this to be true? We have a family friend who has an F150 with the 5.4. He swears BP gives him the best fuel economy. It always seems to be $.20-$.30 more per gallon as well.

Seems to be linear with actual energy content. Ethanol has about 2/3 the energy content per unit volume compared with gasoline. The other thing that needs to be understood is that the gasoline itself can vary in energy content depending on the mixture of hydrocarbons. I think if carefully tailored, an E10 mixture could have more energy than a zero ethanol fuel of the same octane rating.

The other thing is that gasoline is mostly a commodity product being distributed regionally. It's traded, piped, and stored as a commodity product. In my area, the distribution terminal is next to the Chevron Richmond refinery. Even then, they had a shortage after a refinery fire, and I'm sure that a good deal of that fuel was being piped in from other refineries to that distribution terminal. The only thing that makes the fuel "branded" is the additive package that's automatically dumped into the mixture.
 
Originally Posted By: BBDartCA
If I interpret this to mean that all top tier gas has between 8...10% of ethanol, then I'm going to go out of my way to avoid the stuff!

http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit_control.html

1.3.1.2 Base Fuel. The base fuel shall conform to ASTM D 4814 and shall contain commercial fuel grade ethanol conforming to ASTM D 4806. All gasoline blend stocks used to formulate the base fuel shall be representative of normal U.S. refinery operations and shall be derived from conversion units downstream of distillation. Butanes and pentanes are allowed for vapor pressure adjustment. The use of chemical streams is prohibited. The base fuel shall have the following specific properties after the addition of ethanol:

1. Contain enough denatured ethanol such that the actual ethanol content is no less than 8.0 and no more than 10.0 volume percent.


Thats not the way I read it:

I read it as follows:

The TEST FUEL for CERTIFICATION of the fuel additive package shall meet the criteria listed in order for the FINISHED PRODUCT to be Top Tier certified.

Nowhere does the Top Tier standard require that ethanol or other alcohol be included in the FINISHED PRODUCT.

The detergent/additive package used in Top Tier fuel must demonstrate compatibility with certain ethanol treated fuels in order to meet Top Tier standards.

Good day.

Rickey.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Rickey
I read it as follows:

The TEST FUEL for CERTIFICATION of the fuel additive package shall meet the criteria listed in order for the FINISHED PRODUCT to be Top Tier certified.

Nowhere does the Top Tier standard require that ethanol or other alcohol be included in the FINISHED PRODUCT.

The detergent/additive package used in Top Tier fuel must demonstrate compatibility with certain ethanol treated fuels in order to meet Top Tier standards.

Good day.

Rickey.

I think that the testing criteria recognizes ethanol added to the fuel as the worst case scenario, with the detergent content required to keep the fuel system clean in that worst case scenario.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
I wonder about the reliability of the data on the Pure Gas website. Sure, at least some of it can be easily confirmed. But, considering all data is user submitted, it's also subject to user error.


This.
 
Originally Posted By: SOHCman
Filled up my tank but it came at a cost: 3.95/gal!!! Then again regular E10 runs 3.40-3.45 around here.

If my math is correct, I will need to get about 4.145 mpg better to break even on the cost increase. I'm at 27.1 average now on shell regular so I will need 31.245mpg. This is all winter blend so I have my doubts but I used to average 33 in this Accord before they started pumping corn into the fuel so we will see.


Moved to TN about 6 months ago from VA where 100% gas was not available. It is in TN100% 87 octane at selective non major brands so I decided to try it, 20 cents a gal more than regular E10 87 octane. I figure I had to get 2-3 mpg more to break even.
I love it, much more noticeable increase in my hybrid mpg but also very good in my other econobox. A min of break even on the price but I think I am ahead plus, crazy as it sounds, I think they run better. Will see only been 2-3 months of using it.
 
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
duh, you get better mileage without alcohol. It has less energy per unit!

Top Tier is simply a standard. At least you know it meets certain minimums.

Extensive dyno work showed me that in my area the BP had the lowest knock values, thus greatest HP.


This is an old post, but has anyone else proven this to be true? We have a family friend who has an F150 with the 5.4. He swears BP gives him the best fuel economy. It always seems to be $.20-$.30 more per gallon as well.


You just can't allow for the many different blends used all over the place. There are too many variables...
 
Originally Posted By: Spector
Originally Posted By: SOHCman
Filled up my tank but it came at a cost: 3.95/gal!!! Then again regular E10 runs 3.40-3.45 around here.

If my math is correct, I will need to get about 4.145 mpg better to break even on the cost increase. I'm at 27.1 average now on shell regular so I will need 31.245mpg. This is all winter blend so I have my doubts but I used to average 33 in this Accord before they started pumping corn into the fuel so we will see.


Moved to TN about 6 months ago from VA where 100% gas was not available. It is in TN100% 87 octane at selective non major brands so I decided to try it, 20 cents a gal more than regular E10 87 octane. I figure I had to get 2-3 mpg more to break even.

I love it, much more noticeable increase in my hybrid mpg but also very good in my other econobox. A min of break even on the price but I think I am ahead plus, crazy as it sounds, I think they run better. Will see only been 2-3 months of using it.

Cool, glad you have access in your area! Just finished my first tank that still had 25% E10, so iM going to log my milage and see what changes I get. This winter vortex ish will no doubt mess with my results as I warm up the car, but it will be a fun test of the E0.
 
a couple of notes about Top Tier:

- the creators of Top Tier don't claim perfect prevention: "minimizes deposits" source: http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit_control.html
- the tests for Top Tier status are short-term not long-term

Quote:
Intake valve deposit fuel testing, following ASTM D6201 test protocol

A Ford 2.3L engine is subject to a two stage cycle for 100 hours. At the end of the 100 hours, the engine is disassembled and intake valve deposit and induction system measurements are performed.

source: http://www.intertek.com/automotive/fuel-testing/astmd6201-ivd/





This note from the Top Tier webpage:

Quote:
Over the past several years, the minimum level of detergent additive required by the EPA has declined by an estimated 50%.



Does Top Tier exceed the OLD EPA standards at their highest ever point?
 
Originally Posted By: babbittd
a couple of notes about Top Tier:

- the creators of Top Tier don't claim perfect prevention: "minimizes deposits" source: http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit_control.html
- the tests for Top Tier status are short-term not long-term

Quote:
Intake valve deposit fuel testing, following ASTM D6201 test protocol

A Ford 2.3L engine is subject to a two stage cycle for 100 hours. At the end of the 100 hours, the engine is disassembled and intake valve deposit and induction system measurements are performed.

source: http://www.intertek.com/automotive/fuel-testing/astmd6201-ivd/





This note from the Top Tier webpage:

Quote:
Over the past several years, the minimum level of detergent additive required by the EPA has declined by an estimated 50%.



Does Top Tier exceed the OLD EPA standards at their highest ever point?

It's impossible to completely eliminate deposits with only a fuel additive. You might be able to do it with a teardown and the use of some pretty powerful solvents. It may not even be desirable to completely eliminate deposits, as engines are designed around the understanding that there will be at least a minimal layer of carbon. Also - several of the Top Tier marketers exceed those standards, including some that double the amount required.
 
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