Are there any benefits to using gas additives.

[babbittd]

Originally Posted By: Trav
PEA based cleaners work very well in these types of injectors, the sooner you begin using them the better, they are hard to clean once the stuff as built up, its better to prevent it as much as possible.

Using top tier fuel may or may not be of benefit, some companies only put decent amounts of detergents in the high octane fuels, the lower octanes may only meet the minimum.
I like Redline SI-1, it is made for continuous use, a few ounces per tank will go a long way in keeping them in good shape.

Whether or not PEA helps the back of the intake valves is still being debated.


Thanks Trav! This is what I was attempting to ask you on a previous thread, whether or not you thought these products were worth using as a form of prevention.

 

[GregGA]

Trav,

I bought some Regane total cleaner. It says to use every 3000 miles. I don't have DI, just the "old" style injectors. Are those instructions ( 1 bottle/3k) OK? Thank you!

 

[wemay]

In both our Owner's Manuals:

-If TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline is not available, one bottle of additive added to the fuel tank at every 7,500mile or every engine oil change is recommended. Additives are available from your authorized HYUNDAI dealer along with information on how to use them.

Hyundai's fuel additive is nothing more than repackaged Techron.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
Originally Posted By: Wolf359
The main benefit of additives is to make you wallet lighter so it's easier to walk around.


So why do gasoline companies themselves add them?


I'm guessing the question is about aftermarket additives in a bottle and not what's found in pump fuel.


The point I was trying to make (badly) is they have a purpose and it depends not on who adds them. As pointed out techron and other PEA based cleaners certainly are products worthy of consideration.

However, at the point where one is using bottled additives, upping the amount of detergents may be a matter of severely diminishing returns. I get that it can be nice for a quick cleanup in an engine and/or fuel system where minimum-detergent fuel has been used consistently and there are conditions which led to substantial deposits.

I've even heard some claims that too high a detergent level has negative effects. That's what's claimed on the 76 website - that they go maybe 30% over the required level for Top Tier because they feel overdoing is considered overtreatment.

Quote:
http://www.76.com/OurGas/

Not only that, but it also has 30% more than the minimum level specified in the TOP TIER® Detergent Gasoline standard recommended by major car manufacturers.* Every drop has been carefully designed with just the right amount of engine cleaning power to avoid the side effects that can be caused by overtreating.


And you know what? I've got most of a case of Chevron Pro-Gard and am still using a bottle of Red Line SI-1 occasionally when I feel like it. However, I've stopped using it every fill up because I was worried that the fuel itself had inadequate detergents.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: youdontwannaknow
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
I get plenty of additives in my Costco Top Tier gasoline. Five times the Government mandate.


Thanks for mentioning that. I never filled at Costco because they didn't used to have any.
Indeed they are now top tier from March 2014 - http://www.costco.com/kirkland-signature-gasoline.html . Will have to give it a try.

Costco has a unique delivery system for their additive package. Most fuel sellers will have their (branded or generic) additive dumped into the tanker at the loading terminal. Then the amount of fuel is dumped into the tanker, which mixes with the additive. Costco has a different system. They get their additive delivered separately where it is stored in a separate tank. They get their fuel delivered without detergent additives. When their delivery arrives, the employee punches in the amount of fuel to be delivered, the delivery system dumps additive into their tanks to match their required concentration, and the fuel is delivered into their main tanks where it blends with the additive.

Back when Costco first instituted this system, they probably had all the test results they needed to get Top Tier approval. They main thing they were missing was that the Top Tier requirement is that every single gas station selling a particular brand that's on the Top Tier list must have a detergent additive and concentration that met the Top Tier testing standard. Costco was rolling this system out depending on how fast they could install their equipment as well as getting the permits to install all of this. So the stations that were advertising their "Clean Power" additive were essentially up to Top Tier standards even though they couldn't say it because of the requirement that all stations must meet the requirement. The remainder of Costco stations were still receiving fuel from the terminal with a generic detergent additive.

A fuel seller doesn't have to be on the Top Tier list to meet the testing standard. BP used to be BMW's approved fuel even though they weren't on the Top Tier list. It's pretty obvious they met the standard, for a while they just didn't want to play ball with the Top Tier guys.

 

[Apollo14]

Originally Posted By: Trav

Using top tier fuel may or may not be of benefit, some companies only put decent amounts of detergents in the high octane fuels, the lower octanes may only meet the minimum.


From http://www.toptiergas.com/faqs.html

Quote:
Is TT only for my premium gasoline?
No. TOP TIER fuel marketers use the same detergency treat rate for all octane grades of gasoline sold at their stations.


Originally Posted By: Trav
Whether or not PEA helps the back of the intake valves is still being debated.


Here is the testing requirement. I wonder if the intake valve deposit requirement covers your concern about deposits on the back of them.

Code:
Performance Testing Chart



TEST REQUIREMENT



Ford 2.3L Intake Valve Deposits

Base fuel 500mg min

Base fuel + additive (X) at XX PTB 50mg max



Ford 2.3L Combustion Chamber Deposits

Base fuel

Base fuel + additive (X) at XX PTB


Fuel Injector Fouling

Base fuel 5 or more

Base fuel + additive (X) at XX PTB 0 or 1



GM Intake Valve Sticking

Base fuel + additive (X) at XX PTB 0 max @ 2x TOP TIER treat rate

 

[ChrisD46]

The correct dosage for MMO = 4 oz. per 10 gal. of gas OR 320:1 ratio. For TCW-3 two stroke oil = 2 oz. per 10 gal. of gas OR 640:1 ratio ... if using the regular dose of MMO then you would want to cut back the TCW-3 to around 1280:1 ratio which would be 1/2 the recommended ratio - not 300:1 or 400:1 ratio as that is too heavy a concentration .
Originally Posted By: Dufus2
My opinion is that a fuel additive is beneficial if used properly due to ethanol related deposits. My recommendation is a bottle of fuel treatment around 1-2K miles as a maintenance dose.

If your injectors are so dirty that your vehicle needs professional help, a bottle of additive may not help much.

Years ago, I ran a bottle of cleaner and a quart of 2-stroke oil in a 20 gal tank. This blend of cleaners, oil, and solvents did wonders at cleaning out my engine on a road trip.

Today, I use MMO + 2-cycle oil in my gas and never have any issues with cruded up fuel components. MMO is mixed 4-oz per 10 gal (as labeled) and the 2-cycle is mixed around 300-400:1 (1/8 the normal amount) used as a light lubricant.

 

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Costco has a different system. They get their additive delivered separately where it is stored in a separate tank. They get their fuel delivered without detergent additives. When their delivery arrives, the employee punches in the amount of fuel to be delivered, the delivery system dumps additive into their tanks to match their required concentration, and the fuel is delivered into their main tanks where it blends with the additive.div>

I've read about Cosco's on-site additive mixing and it's certainly an interesting idea. I have doubts that it's cost effective, but if Costco up-fronted the money for the tanks, etc. they clearly had something in mind.

My only concern is that the on-site attendant person at Costco or Sam's Club or [insert name of gasoline retailer] is not always a graduate chemist. Our local Sam's Club attendant could also double as a Walmart greeter. This is the person mixing fuel for your $50,000 Bimmer ;-)

 

[Shannow]

I've seen a similar system installed onto bulk tanks in the 90s to place an amount of additive in the diesel tanks during delivery.

Bear in mind that most of the additives that you and I the consumer see are diluted heavily in mineral spirits, kerosene, etc., the treatment tank could be comparatively tiny for hundreds of thousands of litres of fuel.

Set up was under $20k.

Dial in the dosage, metering pump injects, while the fuel runs in...fuel movement is the main mixer.

 

[Shannow]

Also, just like Coke/Schweppes drink fridges, often an additive supplier will "install" a system for nothing as long as they lock into the sales that go on in perpetuity.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: dave5358
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Costco has a different system. They get their additive delivered separately where it is stored in a separate tank. They get their fuel delivered without detergent additives. When their delivery arrives, the employee punches in the amount of fuel to be delivered, the delivery system dumps additive into their tanks to match their required concentration, and the fuel is delivered into their main tanks where it blends with the additive.div>

I've read about Cosco's on-site additive mixing and it's certainly an interesting idea. I have doubts that it's cost effective, but if Costco up-fronted the money for the tanks, etc. they clearly had something in mind.

My only concern is that the on-site attendant person at Costco or Sam's Club or [insert name of gasoline retailer] is not always a graduate chemist. Our local Sam's Club attendant could also double as a Walmart greeter. This is the person mixing fuel for your $50,000 Bimmer ;-)

It might make sense to Costco as a long-term investment. Also, they have a specific additive from Lubrizol that appears to be be custom-made for Costco. If there any company (other than Walmart) that can work over a supplier for the lowest price and/or a customized product, it's Costco.

Costco actually trains their gas station attendants pretty well. They have to be there on hand for deliveries and sign off on it. It should be fairly simple anyways. Match the scheduled delivery amount to the driver's manifest and then punch up the amount on a keypad. Also - their gas stations tend to be really large. My neighborhood Chevron station has four pumps. The largest Costco station I use has 12. They can probably justify it since it's one system and they have the largest turnover in retail fuel.

 

[rhhsiao]

Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: dave5358
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Costco has a different system. They get their additive delivered separately where it is stored in a separate tank. They get their fuel delivered without detergent additives. When their delivery arrives, the employee punches in the amount of fuel to be delivered, the delivery system dumps additive into their tanks to match their required concentration, and the fuel is delivered into their main tanks where it blends with the additive.div>

I've read about Cosco's on-site additive mixing and it's certainly an interesting idea. I have doubts that it's cost effective, but if Costco up-fronted the money for the tanks, etc. they clearly had something in mind.

My only concern is that the on-site attendant person at Costco or Sam's Club or [insert name of gasoline retailer] is not always a graduate chemist. Our local Sam's Club attendant could also double as a Walmart greeter. This is the person mixing fuel for your $50,000 Bimmer ;-)

It might make sense to Costco as a long-term investment. Also, they have a specific additive from Lubrizol that appears to be be custom-made for Costco. If there any company (other than Walmart) that can work over a supplier for the lowest price and/or a customized product, it's Costco.

Costco actually trains their gas station attendants pretty well. They have to be there on hand for deliveries and sign off on it. It should be fairly simple anyways. Match the scheduled delivery amount to the driver's manifest and then punch up the amount on a keypad. Also - their gas stations tend to be really large. My neighborhood Chevron station has four pumps. The largest Costco station I use has 12. They can probably justify it since it's one system and they have the largest turnover in retail fuel.


I remember reading somewhere that Costco takes a slight loss on the gasoline sold but it gets people to maintain their memberships which is where Costco makes its money. Those $5 roast chickens are another example. It's all about keeping people loyal and coming to the stores.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: rhhsiao
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: dave5358
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Costco has a different system. They get their additive delivered separately where it is stored in a separate tank. They get their fuel delivered without detergent additives. When their delivery arrives, the employee punches in the amount of fuel to be delivered, the delivery system dumps additive into their tanks to match their required concentration, and the fuel is delivered into their main tanks where it blends with the additive.div>

I've read about Cosco's on-site additive mixing and it's certainly an interesting idea. I have doubts that it's cost effective, but if Costco up-fronted the money for the tanks, etc. they clearly had something in mind.

My only concern is that the on-site attendant person at Costco or Sam's Club or [insert name of gasoline retailer] is not always a graduate chemist. Our local Sam's Club attendant could also double as a Walmart greeter. This is the person mixing fuel for your $50,000 Bimmer ;-)

It might make sense to Costco as a long-term investment. Also, they have a specific additive from Lubrizol that appears to be be custom-made for Costco. If there any company (other than Walmart) that can work over a supplier for the lowest price and/or a customized product, it's Costco.

Costco actually trains their gas station attendants pretty well. They have to be there on hand for deliveries and sign off on it. It should be fairly simple anyways. Match the scheduled delivery amount to the driver's manifest and then punch up the amount on a keypad. Also - their gas stations tend to be really large. My neighborhood Chevron station has four pumps. The largest Costco station I use has 12. They can probably justify it since it's one system and they have the largest turnover in retail fuel.


I remember reading somewhere that Costco takes a slight loss on the gasoline sold but it gets people to maintain their memberships which is where Costco makes its money. Those $5 roast chickens are another example. It's all about keeping people loyal and coming to the stores.

I've heard rumors about the memberships being their primary source of profit, but I don't think they're a multi-billion dollar company based on membership fees. They need to sell stuff in their stores to make that much money. My understanding about their fuel sales is that they target break-even, but their goal is to drive traffic for people to spend in the store. Also - for retail fuel franchises, the fuel doesn't really make that much. They hate the high price of fuel, since customers aren't in a mood to buy the snacks and other stuff that really makes them money.

 

[Apollo14]

Originally Posted By: dave5358
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Costco has a different system. They get their additive delivered separately where it is stored in a separate tank. They get their fuel delivered without detergent additives. When their delivery arrives, the employee punches in the amount of fuel to be delivered, the delivery system dumps additive into their tanks to match their required concentration, and the fuel is delivered into their main tanks where it blends with the additive.div>

I've read about Cosco's on-site additive mixing and it's certainly an interesting idea. I have doubts that it's cost effective, but if Costco up-fronted the money for the tanks, etc. they clearly had something in mind.

My only concern is that the on-site attendant person at Costco or Sam's Club or [insert name of gasoline retailer] is not always a graduate chemist. Our local Sam's Club attendant could also double as a Walmart greeter. This is the person mixing fuel for your $50,000 Bimmer ;-)


I think they've got their QC set up right. Costco is all about quality.

Quote:
Sophisticated reporting confirms that every delivery is properly additized


http://neiwpcc.org/tanksconference/prese...013_Tuesday.pdf

 

[-SyN-]

Listen to Trav-->He gives good advice.

DI motors are a Nightmare when it comes to Valve Deposits. The Ford Eco Boost is already starting to show this!!!

 

[llbts1]

I have an Ecoboost, and really don't know what to think about the valve deposit issues. I know guys with 150K on the trucks without issue. And they drive them and take care of them like a drunk soccer mom. Read on some forums that this is overblown, and others say it can be a real issue.
Me? I'm not sure if its a concern or not. I run Shell premium in the tank, and every 3k I run the Redline fuel additive. It makes me feel better that if there is a possible problem, I might be helping.

 

[SteveSRT8]

It is a real issue. But the frequency is what is overblown. The Net has a way of making a few random failures look huge, a couple hundred can light up a forum when there may be millions of others who get normal service...

 

[-SyN-]

llbts: I have read and talked with many Ford Mechanics.

The way I understand this poor design is NO Fuel gets sprayed on the exhaust valves. Thus they are never cleaned or lubricated.

Lexus is the only manufacture to care about this issue and actually installed another injector to spray fuel on the exhaust valves.

This is the main reason I bought the HEMI!--->Port Fuel Injected.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0irwbwpuEbQ

My daughters Audi 2.0T is having misfires on #4 & #3 cylinders. Due to the DI and carbon build up on the exhaust valves. With 56K miles. Just a Bad Design!

 

[anndel]

Fuel companies are mandated by the US EPA to incorporate an additive to clean intake, injectors and combustion chambers for emissions control. This goes back to the Clean Air Act of the 1970's.

 

[zpinch]

Alot of DI engines need an upper cylinder lubricant to keep things clean and lubricated, especially the valves.

Amsoil Pi Performance improver is a guaranteed winner when it comes to combustion chamber cleanliness, really cleans things up and gets your engine running properly. Cleans injectors really well for proper spray pattern. They have a money-back guaranteed MPG gain when using it, 3% IIRC.