Amsoil HDD vs. ACD for shear stabilty

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This difference between 3.4 and 3.5 is the difference between 3.4 and 3.5...not a great deal.

However, that's what specifications are, they are lines in the sand drawn by OEMs and industry bodies, to address issues that they have experienced in practice.

Next part of those PMs (clarification, with the BITOG face of Amsoil, who was not talking for, or on behalf of Amsoil) was the question of which OTHER specifications do Amsoil say that they meet/exceed, or recommend their lubricants for that have never been tested against, as they simply don't believe that they matter that much.

My mention to TiredTrucker was against his statement that his engines "needed" a specification, while my mention was that Amsoil "recommend" lubricants for engines that "need" the specifications, and are not necessarily tested, or confirm to the letter of those specifications.

3.4 versus a specified 3.5 is no biggie...however, they are recommending it to customers whose OEMs state a needed specification. The specification is 3.5...it's not met.

Law of probabilities is that all will be good, will be satisfactory, and that a meltdown won't occur that you would be arguing their warranty with.

Unless Amsoil can demonstrate that they have actually done the 93K214 tests, have independently verified test reports, and can thus state with credulity that they meet/exceed, but don't want to pay royalties/licencing.
 
Originally Posted By: Powerstroke
Is there any measurable difference between 3.4 vs 3.5 HTHS? I was told by a ford tech in the past that 3.5 HTHS is the minimum one should run in a 6.0 powerstroke. Recently, I've been exclusively using AMSOIL OE 10w30 with a 3.6 HTHS. I've been contemplating using HDD for my next oil change for a bit more fuel economy and the best cold start up protection I can get.

Maybe the HDD offers a greater level of protection over ACD? If the much more affordable OE 10w30 diesel synthetic has 3.6 HTHS, then why bother with the expensive HDD?


HDD is not CJ-4. Excellent suggestion on the OEC.

Amsoil OE 10W-30
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow

Next part of those PMs (clarification, with the BITOG face of Amsoil, who was not talking for, or on behalf of Amsoil) was the question of which OTHER specifications do Amsoil say that they meet/exceed, or recommend their lubricants for that have never been tested against, as they simply don't believe that they matter that much.


Excuse me? Now you are implying (or directly saying?) Amsoil doesn't test their oils? What????

Way to encourage private conversations! Whatever I said several years ago to you, I'm pretty sure I didn't say Amsoil "never been tested against".
 
Pablo,
nice diversion...Please quote the part where I said that Amsoil do not test their oils...or said that you said that they didn't.

Now tell the board...in their testing, do Amsoil carry out the entire suite of testing that TiredTrucker's OEM requires of the oils for his engines ?
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Pablo,
nice diversion...Please quote the part where I said that Amsoil do not test their oils...or said that you said that they didn't.

Now tell the board...in their testing, do Amsoil carry out the entire suite of testing that TiredTrucker's OEM requires of the oils for his engines ?


Diversion? My goodness. I did not mean any of my posts as such. In fact I did two separate post to keep the topics separate (response to Powerstroke and response to you). You did write "recommend their lubricants for that have never been tested against"

Tired Trucker called out "Detroit Diesel 93K214" I have not directly addressed this and I actually don't know off the my head what the testing suite is. I will need to ask Amsoil and seeing how it is early Sat AM here we may need wait a couple days. I will find out and post what Amsoil says, publicly.

General description:
"93K214 Cooled EGR-equipped engines without aftertreatment devices, operating on low sulfur fuel (below 500 ppm). These engines meet 2002 to 2006 model year emission requirements. These oils are similar to API CI-4 Plus."
 
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Excuse me? Now you are implying (or directly saying?) Amsoil doesn't test their oils? What????


THAT diversion Pablo...quote me where I said (directly or implicitly) that they were not tested, or I stated that you said they weren't.
 
But while you are waiting for Monday, you can also draft the question how 3.4 "meets or exceeds" 3.5..
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Excuse me? Now you are implying (or directly saying?) Amsoil doesn't test their oils? What????


THAT diversion Pablo...quote me where I said (directly or implicitly) that they were not tested, or I stated that you said they weren't.


Originally Posted By: Shannow
Next part of those PMs (clarification, with the BITOG face of Amsoil, who was not talking for, or on behalf of Amsoil) was the question of which OTHER specifications do Amsoil say that they meet/exceed, or recommend their lubricants for that have never been tested against, as they simply don't believe that they matter that much.
 
Originally Posted By: Powerstroke
Is there any measurable difference between 3.4 vs 3.5 HTHS? I was told by a ford tech in the past that 3.5 HTHS is the minimum one should run in a 6.0 powerstroke. Recently, I've been exclusively using AMSOIL OE 10w30 with a 3.6 HTHS. I've been contemplating using HDD for my next oil change for a bit more fuel economy and the best cold start up protection I can get.

Maybe the HDD offers a greater level of protection over ACD? If the much more affordable OE 10w30 diesel synthetic has 3.6 HTHS, then why bother with the expensive HDD?


I wouldn't expect better fuel economy from HDD compared to ACD. HDD may be a little better than OEC for fuel economy, but you'd really have to have a fine point on your pencil to plot the difference. I like the ACD except for the fact that its HTHS is 3% below 3.5. On the other hand, OEC is 3% above 3.5. How about a 50/50 blend of the two to get a 3.5 oil that is less expensive than HDD and has bulletproof shear resistance to boot? HDD has a Temporary Shear Ratio of 91%, which is very respectable for a 5w30, but OEC and ACD are both around 100% for TSR, which is as good as you can get.

I wouldn't worry about cold starting in Austin, TX with a 10w30 oil.
 
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Originally Posted By: Pablo
Tired Trucker called out "Detroit Diesel 93K214" I have not directly addressed this and I actually don't know off the my head what the testing suite is. I will need to ask Amsoil and seeing how it is early Sat AM here we may need wait a couple days. I will find out and post what Amsoil says, publicly.

General description:
"93K214 Cooled EGR-equipped engines without aftertreatment devices, operating on low sulfur fuel (below 500 ppm). These engines meet 2002 to 2006 model year emission requirements. These oils are similar to API CI-4 Plus."


Have Amsoil come back ?
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Tired Trucker called out "Detroit Diesel 93K214" I have not directly addressed this and I actually don't know off the my head what the testing suite is. I will need to ask Amsoil and seeing how it is early Sat AM here we may need wait a couple days. I will find out and post what Amsoil says, publicly.

General description:
"93K214 Cooled EGR-equipped engines without aftertreatment devices, operating on low sulfur fuel (below 500 ppm). These engines meet 2002 to 2006 model year emission requirements. These oils are similar to API CI-4 Plus."


Have Amsoil come back ?


Yes, every day. I am having a dialog with the chief on the Detroit Diesel requirements . I wanted to have a whole answer rather than post chunks. It's interesting and Amsoil's approach makes some level of sense. I hope to have it wrapped up this week, seems like it's dragging out when we exchange one email a day, I'm busy, he's busy, you know the tune.

On the 3.4/3.5 HTHS question here is his answer:

"AMSOIL ACD doesn’t contain VM (viscosity modifier) so shear on the oil is minimal. While it doesn’t meet the new oil HTHS of >3.5, it will maintain viscosity better than most oils containing VM that have HTHS >3.5 cP. This, along with our additive chemistry, allow AMSOIL ACD to provide the performance and protection where ACEA A3/B3 is called for."
 
So essentially he is saying the ACD would provide greater protection and shear stability in a 6.0 powerstroke when compared to the OEC, regardless that the OEC HTHS is 3.6 and ACD being 3.4. Is this correct?

For the cost value, it appears the OEC provides outstanding protection. I'm just trying to gather enough info to see if it's worth the extra money to use the ACD and not fear the ACD's 3.4 HTHS. Again, I'm looking for the highest level of protection in the 6.0 powerstroke with the best shear stability in central Texas year round weather. Keep in mind my truck is bullet proofed...no egr, arp head studs, coolant filter, ELC coolant, o-ringed heads with OEM head gaskets.
 
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Originally Posted By: Powerstroke
So essentially he is saying the ACD would provide greater protection and shear stability in a 6.0 powerstroke when compared to the OEC, regardless that the OEC HTHS is 3.6 and ACD being 3.4. Is this correct?

For the cost value, it appears the OEC provides outstanding protection. I'm just trying to gather enough info to see if it's worth the extra money to use the ACD and not fear the ACD's 3.4 HTHS. Again, I'm looking for the highest level of protection in the 6.0 powerstroke with the best shear stability in central Texas year round weather. Keep in mind my truck is bullet proofed...no egr, arp head studs, coolant filter, ELC coolant, o-ringed heads with OEM head gaskets.


No I don't think he is exactly saying that. He's just justifying this or any lubricant that is fairly shear resistant can start at or slightly below the specified HTHS requirement and be better than another lubricant that starts at or above and dives to or below the lower limit, usually a specification limit that is tested at some number of cycles (say 90 cycles) using ASTM D7109 (for example) if the oil stays in the specified grade as well.

I think OEC is still your best value.

MY WORDS IN SUMMARY FORM: Overall, in summary Amsoil will run a matrix of tests, taken from the range of specifications they list, and test in that manner. Grossly oversimplified - If say one test condition is harsher than another listed test in a given specification, they will claim compliance to the easier test. Amsoil is a performance driven formulator who also relies on their additive suppliers. What that means, if the additive supplier says by using x% by weight of said additive package Amsoil will meet ABC specification, or rather the performance test of said spec, then that gives Amsoil a starting point. They pay for this naturally, meaning the additive suppliers spend some level of money to keep these tests up and keep some level of R&D going and pass this expense on to blenders and upstream formulators. Amsoil claims to use very expensive additives. Further, Amsoil continues to work with the additive company to maximize the amount of additive used and to boost the additive package in selected performance areas to achieve an optimum performing additive package for the intended application. Amsoil of course uses their unique combination of synthetic base stocks with known performance characteristics so to optimize performance in areas of lubricity, volatility, viscosity index, oxidation and nitration resistance, pour point, flash point, deposit control, soot handling, emissions and many other areas as well more testing is done.

So if Amsoil licensed the product to meet one or more specifications, they would be locked in with that formula. They could not source new raw materials, which would greatly increase the threat of supply disruption and the likelihood of extraordinarily high prices. Furthermore, licensing formulas limits the ability to quickly adopt new technologies as they are discovered; each variation from the originally licensed formula requires re-submission for complete engine testing.
 
What a great thread- I've used HDD and occasionally, ACD or a mix of the two, in my '95 Civic for several years now and she just turned 170K miles... probably slight overkill for the little tin-can wonder, though
smile.gif


I felt that I just HAD to comment (boast?), for whatever reason...
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
TiredTrucker, I agree with you using the oil, just be careful as it doesn't "Meet" the standard that you need.


And what standard would that be? According to the Detroit lube manual, sections 2.4, 3.2, and 3.8, a 10w30 is an approved selection. My engine is a factory rebuilt pre-egr (2000 year build), it was developed for the 93K214 Detroit standard for engine oil. The ACD seems like it would be fine. It claims to meet the 93K214 spec. It meets the other requirements laid out in the Detroit Lube and Filter Manual. DDC-SVC-BRO-0001 copyright 2013.

Tech support at Amsoil also stated in a reply to me that ACD would be an acceptable oil in my engine.
 
Tiredtrucker, where you been for half of the thread ?

Amsoil claim, explicitly on their website
Quote:
AMSOIL ACD is recommended for diesel engines, gasoline engines and other applications that require any of the following worldwide specifications:


They don't claim that their oil meets the standard...e.g. it's "recommended for A3/B3" when it clearly CAN'T meet that specification...their comment on being more shear stable over the life of the OCI supports their recommendation.

Did they tell you that it met the specs that you require, or would be suitable in your application ?

Is their word that it's good enough good enough for you ?

That's all that matter, use it and be happy.

I'd like a chance to use it too, now that all of my vehicles are well out of warranty
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Tiredtrucker, where you been for half of the thread ?

Amsoil claim, explicitly on their website
Quote:
AMSOIL ACD is recommended for diesel engines, gasoline engines and other applications that require any of the following worldwide specifications:


They don't claim that their oil meets the standard...e.g. it's "recommended for A3/B3" when it clearly CAN'T meet that specification...their comment on being more shear stable over the life of the OCI supports their recommendation.

Did they tell you that it met the specs that you require, or would be suitable in your application ?

Is their word that it's good enough good enough for you ?

That's all that matter, use it and be happy.

I'd like a chance to use it too, now that all of my vehicles are well out of warranty



When I was still a faithful user of Amsoil I believed all their hype and because of it I began running 10k intervals. After using Amsoil sso 5w-30 for 100k I decided it was time for more lift,so in went a new cam,pushrods etc and the engine inside looked factory clean,not even a light browning of varnish so needless to say I was impressed.
Fast forward to today. I can buy a jug of syn that will easily run my 10000 mile interval at 25% the cost of Amsoil so yes I like the products but not enough to spend significantly more money using it.
Let's now fast forward to today's modern vehicles,with engines that spin faster,run harder and hotter,and make twice the power they used to.
So an oil that's been certified by the manufacturer for use in their engines is extremely important. It means the lubricant has been tested and found to be acceptable for the oem specified drain interval,the oem allowable wear rates,the oem acceptable deposit formation etc.
Not having this certification is a serious liability. I'm not saying Amsoil wouldnt fare well if they decided to endure the testing protocols but the fact that they don't will leave many consumers either choosing to follow warranty requirements or possibly void it,because they chose to use an oil that doesn't have formal approvals and costs more to boot.
Today more than ever that certification is an absolute must have. The oem needs to be secure in the knowledge that they know how each certified lubricant will perform. With amsoil you don't have that
 
Originally Posted By: Clevy
So an oil that's been certified by the manufacturer for use in their engines is extremely important. It means the lubricant has been tested and found to be acceptable for the oem specified drain interval,the oem allowable wear rates,the oem acceptable deposit formation etc.


So are you REALLY saying that Amsoil motor oils aren't tested? I don't think you are, but if so, we need a little proof of that.
 
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