Airstrikes in Syria.

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: bepperb
Originally Posted By: Concours14
Other than protecting through air strikes and arming the Kurds, who can be re-supplied by air with all the best killing gear the American taxpayer can buy, I'm all for allowing Islamics to kill Islamics. They're the same brand of the same animal. It isn't worth even one more of our guys and not even worth one more $2,000,000 cruise missile. Not one. When the dust settles, China can buy their oil from the last man standing, a man who will be a man not unlike 1970's-era Saddam Hussein as the Sunni Muslims seem willing to commit the most heinous brutalities.

It's a feral region, they'll cut their own mothers' throats for a dollar, the only measure of value is destruction. He who kills best garners the most and even the members of the strongman's camp wants him dead so THEY can grab the brass ring. We were idiots to think they could be civilized, and I was one of those that once thought they could. It's a hopeless region to deal with and now that we don't need the oil, the Asians can have their turn at it..


The same could have been said about Western Europe 70 years ago. Sadly their path to stability isn't one anyone wants to go down again, and there doesn't seem to be a better option either. At least not one all parties in that region can agree on.


Western Europe 70 years ago was nothing like the middle east was or is.

 

[Mystic]

It is truly sad that all of this probably could have been prevented. But what can you do?

Thousands of American soldiers died and were injured in Iraq. And in addition these ISIS murderers have murdered untold thousands of innocent human beings.

I don't think airstrikes alone will be able to destroy ISIS. Hopefully the Iraqi military can get its act together. Or maybe Syria will attack a weakened ISIS in Syria. Not that I want the monster who runs Syria to stay in power.

Ultimately ground troops will probably have to go in to drive ISIS out. And it all could have been prevented.

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: Concours14
Well, China could pour their billion-man Army in there and clean it up right QUICK. Then, they could stick a straw in the sand and suck every drop of oil out of there they can haul out. And they won't trouble themselves over cultural sensitivities or distinctions over civilian or military. Kill a Chinese soldier, they'll kill everyone in the village. It's their oil, their contracts, let THEM handle it.

Suits me. All I know is, I don't want any of our guys involved on the ground. Not anymore. Iraq had their chance and they blew it.


So sorry to burst that bubble but China cannot project its power at all. The support required for a large force is a unique challenge, and they are incapable of sustaining anything meaningful on the ground for any length of time. This may change, but it will be a long time before it does.

The Iraqi military fell apart because of their leadership filling the top posts with their cronies. If we hadn't pulled out and left a complete vacuum there was a chance none of this would have happened. I weep for the sons and daughters that were sacrificed for nothing.

That's the whole problem isn't it, we haven't figured out how to pass power over to reasonably honest people. Probably they should just pick 500 professionals in many fields at random from the country and have them elect their temporary leader, and then back them up for a couple years while they hammer out a reasonable civil service and political system. Anyone already in power in most of these places is probably a psychopath anyways, no one with a decent set of morals could do what it takes to get up there...

 

[andrewg]

Regardless of what we do...does anybody really think that a real peace or any true sense of civil cooperation between the various groups here will work? I don't.
Yes...I want these vile ISIS scumbags squashed. But who's next in line to replace them over there? Those cultures have NEVER gotten along and NEVER will. And the west will ALWAYS be at odds with the various factions. It's a shame that that part of the world is the way it is. I think Turkey is the only nation of that persuasion that seems to function fairly peacefully.

 

[05LGTLtd]

If it were up to me, I'd let the Turks annex northern Iraq and eastern Syria.

 

[L_Sludger]

Originally Posted By: 05LGTLtd
If it were up to me, I'd let the Turks annex northern Iraq and eastern Syria.

If it were up to you, you'd let the Germans take western Poland and let the Russians have eastern Poland.

 

[Smokescreen]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: bepperb

To be honest 200 years ago the media didn't make terrorism a realistic tactic. The leverage of the media is the only thing that makes it popular now.


Absolutely amazingly succinct, and so true. The media is precisely what ISIS has used to great effect...


Each nations own media is used to push the agenda of its own government. We see and hear what they want us to hear to get us to support their actions.

While ISIS/ISIL is the horrific enemy of today, they were used by US government years ago to carry out the agenda of that time. It is simply a method the US has used for the past 40-60 years of getting rid of baggage they no longer want to deal with or are tired of trying to control.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: Concours14
Well, China could pour their billion-man Army in there and clean it up right QUICK. Then, they could stick a straw in the sand and suck every drop of oil out of there they can haul out. And they won't trouble themselves over cultural sensitivities or distinctions over civilian or military. Kill a Chinese soldier, they'll kill everyone in the village. It's their oil, their contracts, let THEM handle it.

Suits me. All I know is, I don't want any of our guys involved on the ground. Not anymore. Iraq had their chance and they blew it.


So sorry to burst that bubble but China cannot project its power at all. The support required for a large force is a unique challenge, and they are incapable of sustaining anything meaningful on the ground for any length of time. This may change, but it will be a long time before it does.


Also these groups of terrorist do not consider China as their enemy at the moment. This will change once China starts flexing it's muscles to expand her influence. The United States and Western Europe are the enemies.

Now ISIS has sent an audio plea from Mr. Henning the British aid worker begging for his life, Mr. Henning is still held captive by ISIS.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: Smokescreen
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: bepperb

To be honest 200 years ago the media didn't make terrorism a realistic tactic. The leverage of the media is the only thing that makes it popular now.


Absolutely amazingly succinct, and so true. The media is precisely what ISIS has used to great effect...


Each nations own media is used to push the agenda of its own government. We see and hear what they want us to hear to get us to support their actions.

While ISIS/ISIL is the horrific enemy of today, they were used by US government years ago to carry out the agenda of that time. It is simply a method the US has used for the past 40-60 years of getting rid of baggage they no longer want to deal with or are tired of trying to control.


While domestic TV and Radio is quite well controlled and extremely biased, we have the Net now.

Internet runs wild everywhere, my friend, and has very little restraint. It has been a major player in all the tumultuous happenings in the Middle East and elsewhere, and will continue to be.

I think everyone with a brain knows that we arm groups to our own extreme disadvantage later. As you said, it's nothing new. And now we want to do it again in Syria...

 

[05LGTLtd]

Originally Posted By: L_Sludger
Originally Posted By: 05LGTLtd
If it were up to me, I'd let the Turks annex northern Iraq and eastern Syria.

If it were up to you, you'd let the Germans take western Poland and let the Russians have eastern Poland.


Not exactly the same thing. But *thanks* for calling me pro-facist...

 

[simple_gifts]

Quote:

The Iraqi military fell apart because of their leadership filling the top posts with their cronies. If we hadn't pulled out and left a complete vacuum there was a chance none of this would have happened. I weep for the sons and daughters that were sacrificed for nothing.


Unfortunate for sure, but 5 or 50 years on, the day we left the same thing would have transpired IMHO; I saw no evidence that there would be a tipping point Things are worse now, but I think the middle east stakeholders are more motivated now and have some skin in the game.

A big mistake is acting unilaterally, with nothing more than a group of cheerleaders literally around the field cheering you on.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Vikas
Quote:
Hopefully they will hit any means of oil production and distribution that ISIS has
This is the part which I don't get at all! We have the ability to shoot off the ring from the finger from the sky of any individual (OK, slight exaggeration but you get my drift!) If we do not want those oil wells running, we can certainly punch in a gps co-ordinate from inside a nice air-conditioned office and evaporate them with hitting on a computer.

So, what is preventing this from happening?


I could have sworn they had on one of the news channels today a retired General who said we already did just that. We cut off their black market oil wells in a bombing mission. Or something to that effect.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
I think Turkey is the only nation of that persuasion that seems to function fairly peacefully.


Well, i don't know about that.

The reason they won't let us use base of operations there is their government has been infiltrated and taken over by the radical Islamists.

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: L_Sludger
Originally Posted By: dave1251
New Russia is not a independent country. It is a providence of the Russian Federation.
Well if you're talking about Donbass, Donetsk, Odessa, Slovyansk, etc., they're not yet officially recognized as part of Russia proper, and their full independence from the Kiev junta regime thugs is not recognized yet either.


Kiev "Junta?" You mean the democratically elected government there?

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: dave1251
I am happy there are reports of air strikes against Al-Qaeda affiliates such as the Khorasan group that are also fighting ISIS.

What the vast majority of Americans are not being told is the Free Syrian Army(moderate rebels) is allied with Al-Qaeda and it many affiliates and offshoots in Syria against Bashar Al-Assad first and ISIS second.
...



So what? Most Americans bothering to pay attention can easily read this. They would also know that we're tacitly allied with the Iranians against ISIS. The enemy of my enemy is my (temporary) friend. And that many of the rich [censored] in our "Allied" nations (such as in the House of Saud) support ISIS, or at least supported them until they became a Frankenstein-monster of criminal syndicate...

One can quite logically argue that ISIS largely exists because we ignored the largely moderate anti-Assad resistance early on...

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: Olas
Terrorism is a subjective term.

The 'Americans' were thought to be terrorists when they wanted independence from the crown.


You're a bit oversimplifying an otherwise viable point. In fact, the "Patriots" used terror. But so did the pro-British Tory loyalists to the Crown. In fact, the British Army itself could be quite ruthless. But all sides took POW's and never wanted to slaughter entire religious sects...

However, there are various shades of gray in all this and ISIS' actions have painted them in the blackest of all. They've basically attempted genocide and have summarily executed vast numbers of prisoners. They are war criminals, and frankly just gangster criminals that makes nearly everyone hate them. A pox on all their bunkers!

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: Concours14
Well, China could pour their billion-man Army in there and clean it up right QUICK. Then, they could stick a straw in the sand and suck every drop of oil out of there they can haul out. And they won't trouble themselves over cultural sensitivities or distinctions over civilian or military. Kill a Chinese soldier, they'll kill everyone in the village. It's their oil, their contracts, let THEM handle it.

Suits me. All I know is, I don't want any of our guys involved on the ground. Not anymore. Iraq had their chance and they blew it.


Um, what? China does not have a "billion man army," the PLA is more like three million IIRC. And even there, it is considered a bloated and overly political force where large numbers actually hinder its effectiveness - which is why they have been reducing numbers...

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: dave1251
I am happy there are reports of air strikes against Al-Qaeda affiliates such as the Khorasan group that are also fighting ISIS.

What the vast majority of Americans are not being told is the Free Syrian Army(moderate rebels) is allied with Al-Qaeda and it many affiliates and offshoots in Syria against Bashar Al-Assad first and ISIS second.
...



So what? Most Americans bothering to pay attention can easily read this. They would also know that we're tacitly allied with the Iranians against ISIS. The enemy of my enemy is my (temporary) friend. And that many of the rich [censored] in our "Allied" nations (such as in the House of Saud) support ISIS, or at least supported them until they became a Frankenstein-monster of criminal syndicate...

One can quite logically argue that ISIS largely exists because we ignored the largely moderate anti-Assad resistance early on...



I doubt your faith in Americans situational awareness will be justified. Most Americans can not tell you there is 3 branches of federal Government.

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
I think Turkey is the only nation of that persuasion that seems to function fairly peacefully.


Well, i don't know about that.

The reason they won't let us use base of operations there is their government has been infiltrated and taken over by the radical Islamists.


That's not exactly true. I think it has more to do the dozens of Turkish citizens being held by ISIS and the fact that Turkey is probably [censored] itself over the prospect of a free, independent Kurdistan...

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: dave1251
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: dave1251
I am happy there are reports of air strikes against Al-Qaeda affiliates such as the Khorasan group that are also fighting ISIS.

What the vast majority of Americans are not being told is the Free Syrian Army(moderate rebels) is allied with Al-Qaeda and it many affiliates and offshoots in Syria against Bashar Al-Assad first and ISIS second.
...



So what? Most Americans bothering to pay attention can easily read this. They would also know that we're tacitly allied with the Iranians against ISIS. The enemy of my enemy is my (temporary) friend. And that many of the rich [censored] in our "Allied" nations (such as in the House of Saud) support ISIS, or at least supported them until they became a Frankenstein-monster of criminal syndicate...

One can quite logically argue that ISIS largely exists because we ignored the largely moderate anti-Assad resistance early on...



I doubt your faith in Americans situational awareness will be justified. Most Americans can not tell you there is 3 branches of federal Government.


Okay, so what is your solution?