Small Particle MoS2 Settling Time

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2.) Einstein's diffusion equations of Brownian motion says that particles diffuse to lowest density and finally settle as well.


Another way of stating this is to say that, particle ensembles of higher density settle first, and particle ensembles of lowest density finally settle last.
 
That is what I said! But I didn't know I was quoting Brownian motion. I have never heard of Brownian motion. So it is just a fancy way of saying that heavier particles settle faster than smaller, lighter particles.

But Brownian motion sounds so advanced, so grad school, so Ivy League. Of course, being able to spell well also helps.
 
Originally Posted By: Rosetta
Yes, I got as personal attacks, when someone say that my statments are stupid or that I throw Darts, before their huge cabedal of knowledge. Nobody knew about the Brownian Movement before I did bring it up to this thread, that's what I know. Going to wikipedia to get Einstenian theories about the phenomena and shooting here is a way to stay above the people. Some people are desperate to be the wiser, even when most of their fine solutions are crackup cases.





You crack me up.

Keep posting and proving you're nothing more than a copy and paste expert.
Trav has helped pretty much every single one of us out at some point with some vehicle. I for one believe everything he posts.
Why?
Because it has been my experience in my years as a member here that he's right,it's just that simple.

And questioning molekule puts you on a whole new level,and not in a good way.

Enjoy your stay here while it lasts. I've got no doubts that soon no one is going to have to tolerate your blather,under this particular user name anyway.
You can join mori,or apolo or whatever he calls himself now. He can show you how to change your IP address so you can come back.
I do admit it's fun figuring out which banned member has returned. Some of us have a pool going.
Trav and DP are tied,but I'm catching up.
 
Originally Posted By: Rosetta
Going to wikipedia to get Einstenian theories about the phenomena and shooting here is a way to stay above the people.

I gather that Mola knew about Brownian motion long before Wikipedia went online.

Mola: In the graphite example in the video, how would the dispersant/detergent package deal with graphite? We know it helps keep soot in suspension. How about that other form of carbon, graphite? By the way, I don't want one of your Wikipedia answers.
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Clevy

You can join mori,or apolo or whatever he calls himself now. He can show you how to change your IP address so you can come back.
I do admit it's fun figuring out which banned member has returned. Some of us have a pool going.
Trav and DP are tied,but I'm catching up.


It is kind of fun. And I'll never understand why we are SO important to them. But they just keep coming...
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: Clevy

You can join mori,or apolo or whatever he calls himself now. He can show you how to change your IP address so you can come back.
I do admit it's fun figuring out which banned member has returned. Some of us have a pool going.
Trav and DP are tied,but I'm catching up.


It is kind of fun. And I'll never understand why we are SO important to them. But they just keep coming...


It is fun. We think 'you know who' is using two names, and on occasion talks to himself. Good stuff. With one name he attacks a product, and the other he defends it. New tactics. LOL Eventually he zeroes in on attacking the same members though.

Steve, Clevy is ahead of you in "Hunt The Re-incarnate," you're slipping buddy! Maybe he'll visit this thread [with one of his names] and ask who we're talking about. For the record Mystic is the champ at finding The Re-incarnate.
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
2.) Einstein's diffusion equations of Brownian motion says that particles diffuse to lowest density and finally settle as well.


Another way of stating this is to say that, particle ensembles of higher density settle first, and particle ensembles of lowest density finally settle last.


Molakule i have a question you might have the answer to.
My car sat for a long time with the old oil in the pan. We have all seen deposits drop out of the oil in the used oil jug if left sitting for a long time.

Could the MoS2 attach to these particles causing them to fall out of suspension faster than they normally in clean oil?

TIA
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Rosetta said:
Going to wikipedia to get Einstenian theories about the phenomena and shooting here is a way to stay above the people.


Quote:
I gather that Mola knew about Brownian motion long before Wikipedia went online.


Yep, I am older than soot.
shocked2.gif


Quote:
Mola: In the graphite example in the video, how would the dispersant/detergent package deal with graphite? We know it helps keep soot in suspension. How about that other form of carbon, graphite?


The detergent's role is to "lift" any deposits that might stick to surfaces.

The dispersant's role is to keep these deposits in suspension until drain time.

In doing so it does this:

1.) It Lowers the surface and interfacial energy of various polar species to prevent their adherence to metal surfaces.

(This is one of the reasons that formulating is such a sensitive balancing act between AW, FM,'s, and dispersants, which all compete for surfaces).


2.) Suspends aggregates in the bulk lubricant, if they are present.


3.) Modifying soot particles so as to prevent their aggregation. Aggregation will lead to oil thickening. This means that the dispersant tends to keep the suspended particulates from "clumping."


4.) a dispersant associates with colloidal particles, thereby preventing them from grouping and falling out of solution.


Now on number 4.), if the particle is large and has a mass greater than any opposing Buoyancy force, the particle will still fall due to gravity.

So the dispersant will treat any particle as a foreign entity.

Quote:
By the way, I don't want one of your Wikipedia answers.
wink.gif



You're no fun!
smile.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
2.) Einstein's diffusion equations of Brownian motion says that particles diffuse to lowest density and finally settle as well.


Another way of stating this is to say that, particle ensembles of higher density settle first, and particle ensembles of lowest density finally settle last.


Molakule i have a question you might have the answer to.
My car sat for a long time with the old oil in the pan. We have all seen deposits drop out of the oil in the used oil jug if left sitting for a long time.

Could the MoS2 attach to these particles causing them to fall out of suspension faster than they normally in clean oil?

TIA


Yes, see the response to Garack as well.

Since MoS2 is a "polar" species, it will attract anything toward it that is also polar, including dispersants.
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: Garak
Rosetta said:
Going to wikipedia to get Einstenian theories about the phenomena and shooting here is a way to stay above the people.


Quote:
I gather that Mola knew about Brownian motion long before Wikipedia went online.


Yep, I am older than soot.
shocked2.gif


Quote:
Mola: In the graphite example in the video, how would the dispersant/detergent package deal with graphite? We know it helps keep soot in suspension. How about that other form of carbon, graphite?


The detergent's role is to "lift" any deposits that might stick to surfaces.

The dispersant's role is to keep these deposits in suspension until drain time.

In doing so it does this:

1.) It Lowers the surface and interfacial energy of various polar species to prevent their adherence to metal surfaces.

(This is one of the reasons that formulating is such a sensitive balancing act between AW, FM,'s, and dispersants, which all compete for surfaces).


2.) Suspends aggregates in the bulk lubricant, if they are present.


3.) Modifying soot particles so as to prevent their aggregation. Aggregation will lead to oil thickening. This means that the dispersant tends to keep the suspended particulates from "clumping."


4.) a dispersant associates with colloidal particles, thereby preventing them from grouping and falling out of solution.


Now on number 4.), if the particle is large and has a mass greater than any opposing Buoyancy force, the particle will still fall due to gravity.

So the dispersant will treat any particle as a foreign entity.

Quote:
By the way, I don't want one of your Wikipedia answers.
wink.gif



You're no fun!
smile.gif



In other words, the only mechanism that would keep low mass nano particles in suspension is the oil's own dispersant.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: Garak
Rosetta said:
Going to wikipedia to get Einstenian theories about the phenomena and shooting here is a way to stay above the people.


Quote:
I gather that Mola knew about Brownian motion long before Wikipedia went online.


Yep, I am older than soot.
shocked2.gif


Quote:
Mola: In the graphite example in the video, how would the dispersant/detergent package deal with graphite? We know it helps keep soot in suspension. How about that other form of carbon, graphite?


The detergent's role is to "lift" any deposits that might stick to surfaces.

The dispersant's role is to keep these deposits in suspension until drain time.

In doing so it does this:

1.) It Lowers the surface and interfacial energy of various polar species to prevent their adherence to metal surfaces.

(This is one of the reasons that formulating is such a sensitive balancing act between AW, FM,'s, and dispersants, which all compete for surfaces).


2.) Suspends aggregates in the bulk lubricant, if they are present.


3.) Modifying soot particles so as to prevent their aggregation. Aggregation will lead to oil thickening. This means that the dispersant tends to keep the suspended particulates from "clumping."


4.) a dispersant associates with colloidal particles, thereby preventing them from grouping and falling out of solution.


Now on number 4.), if the particle is large and has a mass greater than any opposing Buoyancy force, the particle will still fall due to gravity.

So the dispersant will treat any particle as a foreign entity.

Quote:
By the way, I don't want one of your Wikipedia answers.
wink.gif



You're no fun!
smile.gif



In other words, the only mechanism that would keep low mass nano particles in suspension is the oil's own dispersant.


Ok, then, are you listening?

Where in the heck did you found that MOS2 addes to LiquyMoly or Molycote are NANO SIZED PARTICLES? Maybe half micron at the smallest ones, but, hey, 500 NANOS is better called 0,5 micron huh?
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Now on number 4.), if the particle is large and has a mass greater than any opposing Buoyancy force, the particle will still fall due to gravity.

So, marbles in the oil would fall out of suspension despite the additive package and any Brownian motion, unless it was SAE 50 in -40 C and they got dropped in then, right?
wink.gif


Rosetta: In addition to what MolaKule has stated about the moly powder falling out of suspension, that is a phenomenon that has been observed and reported anecdotally here for a very long time.
 
Originally Posted By: Rosetta
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Garak said:
Rosetta said:
Going to wikipedia to get Einstenian theories about the phenomena and shooting here is a way to stay above the people.


Quote:
I gather that Mola knew about Brownian motion long before Wikipedia went online.


Yep, I am older than soot.
shocked2.gif


Quote:
Mola: In the graphite example in the video, how would the dispersant/detergent package deal with graphite? We know it helps keep soot in suspension. How about that other form of carbon, graphite?


The detergent's role is to "lift" any deposits that might stick to surfaces.

The dispersant's role is to keep these deposits in suspension until drain time.

In doing so it does this:

1.) It Lowers the surface and interfacial energy of various polar species to prevent their adherence to metal surfaces.

(This is one of the reasons that formulating is such a sensitive balancing act between AW, FM,'s, and dispersants, which all compete for surfaces).


2.) Suspends aggregates in the bulk lubricant, if they are present.


3.) Modifying soot particles so as to prevent their aggregation. Aggregation will lead to oil thickening. This means that the dispersant tends to keep the suspended particulates from "clumping."


4.) a dispersant associates with colloidal particles, thereby preventing them from grouping and falling out of solution.


Now on number 4.), if the particle is large and has a mass greater than any opposing Buoyancy force, the particle will still fall due to gravity.

So the dispersant will treat any particle as a foreign entity.

Quote:
By the way, I don't want one of your Wikipedia answers.
wink.gif



You're no fun!
smile.gif



In other words, the only mechanism that would keep low mass nano particles in suspension is the oil's own dispersant.


Quote:


Ok, then, are you listening?


Huh? Are YOU listening.
confused2.gif


Quote:
Where in the heck did you found that MOS2 [addes?] to LiquyMoly or Molycote are NANO SIZED PARTICLES? Maybe half micron at the smallest ones, but, hey, 500 NANOS is better called 0,5 micron huh?


Suspension "Grade" moly disulfide powder has a 0.3 um particle size.

Krex claims their graphite has a 0.750 um particle size.

1 um = 1X10^-6m = 1000 nm = 1000X10^-9m. 1 nm = 1X10^-9m.

So 0.3 um is = 0.3X10^-6 m = 300X10^-9 m = 300 nanometers.

So 0.750 um is = 0.750X10^-6 m = 750X10^-9 m = 750 nanometers.

10^-9 means "base ten to the minus 9th power."
 
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Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Now on number 4.), if the particle is large and has a mass greater than any opposing Buoyancy force, the particle will still fall due to gravity.


So, marbles in the oil would fall out of suspension despite the additive package and any Brownian motion, unless it was SAE 50 in -40 C and they got dropped in then, right?

Rosetta: In addition to what MolaKule has stated about the moly powder falling out of suspension, that is a phenomenon that has been observed and reported anecdotally here for a very long time.


Exactly.

For the heck of it, let's review the three forces involved with particle motion in fluid:

1.) Buoyancy - An upward force on a mass caused by a displacement of fluid when mass is immersed in a fluid.

Buoyancy force = mass of fluid (oil) X Gravitationl Force = density of oil X occupied volume of particle X Gravitationl Force.

Summary: Buoyancy Force too low to be of any significance since gravitational force exceeds buoyancy force.

2.) Brownian Motion - A statistical description of Particle motion.

Summary: Not applicable here because because the more that particles are pulled down by gravity, the greater is the tendency for the particles to migrate to regions of lower density. Dynamic equilibrium is established.

3.) Drag Force - An upward directed force, opposing the gravitational force on a particle. This force simply retards or slows the downward motion of the particle.

Discreet Particle Settling Forces and Time to Settle - JHZR2 has already discussed this, his results are valid, and has shown the time for a particle to settle, when gravitational force exceeds both buoyancy force and drag force with the gravitational force dominating in a non-turbulent flow field.
 
I posted this explanation in another Moly thread to help people understand the difference between suspended moly powders (colloids) versus the soluble mols found in formulated motor oils.

The soluble molys, whether they be the Molybdenum Dithiocarbamates, or as the Di-nuclear or Tri-nuclear molys, does not turn into a powder.

The soluble molys dispense their individual molecules to allow shearing of the molybdenum molecules to provide friction modification. No powder is involved in the shearing mechanism for the soluble molys.

ZDDP, an ester, does the same in the sense that it dispenses its individual molecules of zinc, phosphorus, and sulfur to provide anti-wear effects and oxidation inhibition in a controlled fashion.

In MOS2 powders that are found in LiquiMoly, etc., the elemental sulfur particle provides a polar attraction to the metal for the solid moly particle(s). Once the solid moly particles are deposited on the steel internals, they shear under the mechanical shearing forces (as I have explained in other threads) like a deck of cards.

For example, take 10 plastic coated playing cards. Put your finger on the top card and press lightly at an angle. This is what happens in engine internals for any friction modification additive. Like the layers of cards, the layers are sheared off one by one to reduce friction.
 
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Thanks Mola!
Does the moly only deposited on steel or ferrous metals? Does that mean it only fills the asperities in the iron and not say the soft lead bearings or newer aluminum bearings? It its only ferrous metals, does that mean in only provides friction reduction on ferrous to ferrous contact? Like cam and lifters and rocker arms , rings. but not say cam bearings and main bearings?
 
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Are asking about colloidal (powdered MOS2 in an oil carrier) or the soluble moly?

I was only using steel as an example. Either type should have an affinity for just about any metal
 
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Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Are asking about colloidal (powdered MOS2 in an oil carrier) or the soluble moly?

I was only using steel as an example. Either type should have an affinity for just about any metal



I was curious about the colloidal powder. What happens to the di or tri souluble moly if boundry lubrication comes into play?
 
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