Small Particle MoS2 Settling Time

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Originally Posted By: Apollo14
Clevy, I'm not finding an answer to my question on why do we need to redose the Liqui Moly product if it clings to surfaces as it claims to.

It clings to or plates metal surfaces - bearings, journals, rings, cylinder walls. The "clinging" is not permanent. If you do a couple of oil changes and do not continue to add MoS2, most of the material that was clinging to bearing surfaces will be gone - wears off and drains out with the oil.

On the other hand, after the initial dose of MoS2, you could (should, according to some voices) reduce the amount of MoS2 you add - perhaps 1/2 or 1/3 can of Liqui-Moly MoS2 Anti Friction. The built-up layer of MoS2 on metal surfaces will only get so thick. Beyond that, the rest of the material just stays in suspension in your oil and drains out when you change your oil. That doesn't hurt anything but you don't get much benefit either.

Another user reported a situation in which a vehicle was not used for an extended period (a year?) and the MoS2 settled in the pan. Without seeing the results, my suspicion is that only part of the material settled - that part of the MoS2 which had not yet attached to metal surfaces. MoS2 in bearing journals will not settle out or drain out. So, this idle-for-a-year vehicle may have received a significant benefit from the MoS2 when it came out of hibernation, because the motor oil had clearly drained out or evaporated from the metal surfaces.

As for the MoS2, it may be 'worn off' through use and non-replenishment. As for what settled in the pan, the user clearly got no benefit, but it's unclear why this would cause any harm. Settling in a shorter term (week, month) is a non-issue. And, how many vehicles sit idle for a whole year?
 
I don't know why they call it LiquiMoly when they use a suspended powder.

As with any solid particle friction modifier, it shears off.

From the English PDF:

Quote:
Colloidal solid lubricant suspension based on molybdenum sulfide (MoS2) in mineral oil. The product forms a high-load lubricating film on all rubbing and sliding surfaces. This in turn reduces friction, providing for smoother operation of assemblies and greater engine economy. Tested for turbochargers and catalytic converters.


Colloidal solid lubricant means it is a MoS2 powder suspended in an oil.

Most PCMOs already contain a MoS2 compound called "X-nuclear" moly, a soluble moly.

Why use a powdered version that readily falls out of suspension when most oils have a soluble version that does not fall out?
 
Originally Posted By: Nebroch
I think it's more about your engine than used oil if MoS² gives benefits or not. LM tells on it's moly oil flyer that MoS² generally works better in old and worn engines, as MoS² coating on their maybe out of spec friction surfaces makes oil perform better on them.


I think this is the most plausible explanation for the difference in real world results (in worn engines) vs testing in (presumably) in spec newer engines.

MoS2 doesn't reduce friction compared to modern oils that have superior Moly, so the only explanation for better fuel economy vs modern oils is bringing friction surfaces closer back to spec.
 
How much will MoS2 reduce your wear?

Well, LiquiMoly 10w40 with MoS2 claims to meet ACEA A3-04/B4-04. So that's 2004.

According to Lubrizol's tool, the 2008 standards are as high as the current 2012 standards for ACEA A3/B4.

Here is a chart to compare the relative performance of A3/B4 that MoS2 can achieve vs that achieved by any oil meeting that standard since 2008:

594452a2-9fea-4ffd-b6c1-b41eedd8dc32.jpg

So in tests, LiquiMoly 10w40 with MoS2 performs significantly worse for Wear (as well as piston deposits and sludge) than any ACEA A3/B4 oil meeting 2008 or later standards.

I think it is safe to say that the MoS2 additive is not going to give you improved wear protection vs modern oils. To Liqui Moly's credit, they indicate that it's best if used on higher mileage engines. Some in this thread though have advocated using it in new cars to prevent wear and that is just not borne out by the certifications.
 
Originally Posted By: jrustles
So, in the real world, what role do dispersants (eg PIBS) play in agglomeration and precipitation of colloidal MoS2?


Little if any.

Dispersants attach themselves to hyperoxides. I don't think they have affinity for metallic-based additive components.
 
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Originally Posted By: Apollo14
dave5358, it's been a month since you did your test.
Care to report back the results?

Yes, I looked at it a few days back. There was no discernible settling in either the Molykote-in-oil or the Liqui-Moly MoS2 Anti Friction-in-oil. I tried shining a flashlight through the tubes - zero. The two MoS2 mixes do not look the same - they have a different appearance. There could still be some settling going on only my 'light test' does not detect it.

Strangely the Mobil-1 stratified - it looks quite striking. I'm not sure it matters - just a curiosity.
 
Originally Posted By: Apollo14

So in tests, LiquiMoly 10w40 with MoS2 performs significantly worse for Wear (as well as piston deposits and sludge) than any ACEA A3/B4 oil meeting 2008 or later standards.

I think it is safe to say that the MoS2 additive is not going to give you improved wear protection vs modern oils.


Those specs are only minimum requirement, not actual value for any oil.
 
Originally Posted By: Nebroch
Originally Posted By: Apollo14

So in tests, LiquiMoly 10w40 with MoS2 performs significantly worse for Wear (as well as piston deposits and sludge) than any ACEA A3/B4 oil meeting 2008 or later standards.

I think it is safe to say that the MoS2 additive is not going to give you improved wear protection vs modern oils.


Those specs are only minimum requirement, not actual value for any oil.


confused2.gif


What specs are you referring to?
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
My car sits for 6 months at at a time. I guess the "Brownian" effect didn't do jack because it still fell out and ended up in the bottom of the pan.
Theories are like A holes, everybody has one but that stuff i was removing from the bottom of the pan was all the proof i need.


Didn't do jack huh?
So you move your car twice a year And remove the pan everytime to see old sludge? Ow my ...
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
Theres one in every crown.
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Next time why don't you ask why instead of spewing stupid comments.


Wow...........That's the thanks you get for contributing your experience with the product in a vehicle that sits for extended periods of time. Maybe some people should just learn these things for themselves I guess.
 
Originally Posted By: Nebroch
Originally Posted By: Apollo14

So in tests, LiquiMoly 10w40 with MoS2 performs significantly worse for Wear (as well as piston deposits and sludge) than any ACEA A3/B4 oil meeting 2008 or later standards.

I think it is safe to say that the MoS2 additive is not going to give you improved wear protection vs modern oils.


Those specs are only minimum requirement, not actual value for any oil.


You are right. I realized after and was going to correct my statement, but I wanted to see who was paying attention.

It is conceivable that their 10w40 and Mos2 has higher wear protection than those standards.

BUT, if you run their 10w40 with MoS2, compared to more recent ACEA standards, you MUST be compromising on one of the following 3 goals: Wear or Sludge or Piston Deposits.

And, this is the only claim that they make:

Originally Posted By: LiquiMoly
For example, the LIQUI MOLY MoS2 Low Friction 10W-40 motor oil was tested to establish whether the addition of the solid lubricant molybdenum disulfide can in fact reduce the friction in the motor. The result: The low friction oil with the additive MoS2 offers approximately 10% higher wear protection than the base oil of the same standard without the additive


Do they really mean the "base oil" or the regular 10w40? If it is "base oil" then don't other additives reduce friction as well? We know that more recent versions of Moly are better for reducing friction.

If wear protection is so good, why is it that Liqui Moly don't add the MoS2 to an oil with better sludge and piston deposit performance and achieve a more significant and attractive ACEA rating?

Additionally, the non MoS2 10w40 has VW and Mercedes approval and they claim suitability against other standards. With MoS2 it doesn't meet anything outside of ACEA nor do they claim it does.
 
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
If wear protection is so good, why is it that Liqui Moly don't add the MoS2 to an oil with better sludge and piston deposit performance and achieve a more significant and attractive ACEA rating?

Additionally, the non MoS2 10w40 has VW and Mercedes approval and they claim suitability against other standards. With MoS2 it doesn't meet anything outside of ACEA nor do they claim it does.


Maybe these more recent specifications don't allow such an amount of solids in oil, so you can't get them anyway. It could also be a message, "don't add this to modern engine"
smile.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Nebroch
Originally Posted By: Apollo14
If wear protection is so good, why is it that Liqui Moly don't add the MoS2 to an oil with better sludge and piston deposit performance and achieve a more significant and attractive ACEA rating?

Additionally, the non MoS2 10w40 has VW and Mercedes approval and they claim suitability against other standards. With MoS2 it doesn't meet anything outside of ACEA nor do they claim it does.


Maybe these more recent specifications don't allow such an amount of solids in oil, so you can't get them anyway. It could also be a message, "don't add this to modern engine"
smile.gif


It could be "It turns your oil black".
 
Quote:
And I bet you'd never heard about the Browninan moviment before I said in here ...


And I doubt few have ever heard of the Einsteinian theory of Brownian motion or its equations until I presented it, including you.

Major Effect due to gravitational settling: JHZR2 has presented the MathLab equations to show practical settling times.

Very, very minor effects: The Eisteinian equations of Browinian motion show only very very minor diffusion effects wrt to settling time.

Please go back and review JHZR2's and my information and stop the dart throwing.
 
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well, I am not a chemist and I am not going to claim that I know something I do not know. I never worked for Exxon/Mobil or Valvoline or Arco. I don't know anything about Brownian movement (let me help you with that spelling for movement). But I will say what I do know.

The oil companies developed chemical formulations using moly in chemical combination with the oil. The moly would stay in suspension. Arco did the same thing with graphite in their product. It is obvious to anybody with common sense that large particles of something will rain out of suspension easier than very small particles, unless some other factor is in play that helps to keep particles in suspension. Arco did not seem to keep their product in production too long. Maybe there was some sort of problem using graphite.

What the oil companies did is obviously superior to just dumping moly particles into the oil. Because the oil companies have actual chemists to work on their motor oils.

There you go. I have written in common English and I think with common sense.

The oil companies seem to be moving away from moly. Maybe they found something better or maybe moly is just too expensive. I don't know. Maybe they have oil additives that are cheaper and more effective than moly.

I am not impressed by anybody who has to engage to personal attacks on anybody here. It should be possible for someone to state their case here without resorting to name calling and personal attacks.
 
Yes, I got as personal attacks, when someone say that my statments are stupid or that I throw Darts, before their huge cabedal of knowledge. Nobody knew about the Brownian Movement before I did bring it up to this thread, that's what I know. Going to wikipedia to get Einstenian theories about the phenomena and shooting here is a way to stay above the people. Some people are desperate to be the wiser, even when most of their fine solutions are crackup cases.
 
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Quote:
Nobody knew about the Brownian Movement before I did bring it up


Totally not the case, but thank you for discovering this new phenomena. We'll make sure the Nobel committee gets the message.
grin2.gif


Even Krex has some "cracks" in the above Infomercial when their claims are compared against physical laws.

To simplify,

1.) in colloidal mixtures the gravitational force causes particles of mass to settle over time.

2.) Einstein's diffusion equations of Brownian motion says that particles diffuse to lowest density and finally settle as well.

At best, Brownian motion is a "low order," insignificant effect.
 
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