Vaccines - Calling the Shots

[Nick R]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
So what you are saying is that you want others to be forced to act in the way you think they should act so you are safer? That their freedom, as insane as it may seem to us is less valuable than your freedom?

Look, I'm not saying folks should prevent their children from getting a vaccination. I simply question the practice of forcing others to conform in this fashion to provide safety for others.

If they want to, great. But if they don't, they shouldn't be looked on as being any less valuable than you or anyone else. By forcing views on another in the name of safety erodes the freedoms this nation was founded upon.

I think that is far more dangerous than any disease vector that may go through our nation.

Originally Posted By: tinmanSC
Originally Posted By: javacontour
But if your kids are vaccinated, then how does what someone else do with respect to this issue impact you? You and your kids benefit from the vaccine. Those who choose not to vaccinate roll the dice.

The problem is when they expect others to bail them out and someone in charge says you have to bail them out.

What if we just let them live with the consequences of their choices?

My question is who are the idiots, those who don't vaccinate, or those who bail them out after they've made a bad choice?

From my perspective, it's not those who not choose to vaccinate who are the biggest idiots, but those who ensure they remain the gene pool because they are insulated from the consequences of their choices.


You're making pretty broad statements there. I cannot take many vaccines. I cannot take tetanus, diphtheria or pertussis. I also cannot take the MMR one. I can take Flu, but that's about it. If I could take them, I would. I'm in a situation where others have to have herd immunity to keep me from getting sick. Luckily, I've never gotten those illnesses that can be prevented by vaccine.


Alrighty, so I guess I shouldn't be forced to have a driver license to drive either. It's clear that being able to drive is a right, and I shouldn't have to take any sort of test to prove that I'm actually capable of operating a motor vehicle. Being forced to get a driver license in order to drive is impinging on my freedoms.

^^^^

When I worked at Time Warner, I once had a guy I talked to literally give me this exact argument. He as completely anti-establishment, and was proud that he drove without a license because having to have a license impinged on his freedoms.

Now, I'm not saying we should FORCE people to get vaccines. However, I think people should be educated more on the facts. WHY vaccines help, and to the DEGREE they have helped in the past. You can't force anyone to do anything, but some things should be strongly advised, and make sure people have all the information.

 

[javacontour]

Edited to add, driving is not a right. That has been demonstrated many times. There is no right to have a drivers license. If you want one, you have to pass the state requirements.

Likewise for working. There are many conditions to working that are not conditions to everyday life.

Many jobs require drug testing. Heck, I have customers that require the people who come to their data centers be drug tested, go through annual training, etc. Those are conditions to employment and are perfectly reasonable.

While I personally am for vaccination, I wouldn't want it to be a government mandated requirement. They can recommend all they want. But to say we won't educate your child because you believe differently with respect to the vaccination question really isn't in line with what our founders envisioned, which is a nation founded on the principles of freedom.

Of course, I suspect home schoolers are over represented in the set of anti-vaccination or vice versa, so perhaps it's a problem that largely solves itself.

Also added after the edit, education is NOT a right in the US. So I suppose a school district can say you have to meet these requirements to be educated in the district.

Originally Posted By: Nick R
Interestingly, I now work in a hospital. Do you know what I had to do, in order to be hired? I had to have a 2 part TB test, I have also gotten this years influenza vaccine, I am redoing my Hepatitis B vaccine, the combo tetanus/whooping cough vaccine, and several others, to make sure I'm up to date. And it's not just for my safety, it's for the safety of other people I work with, as well as the patients in the hospital, even if I don't work with them directly.

This is also true for pretty much anyone that works in health care. And for good reason.

To be clear, I don't mind people who want to spread them out or delay them a bit. That's fine, it even makes a degree of sense to me. I'm mainly annoyed at the full-out anti vaccine/vaccines cause autism people, which has again been disproven quite a few times by actual science, not pseudo science.

 

[jrustles]

Since vaccination in the capacity as we know it today, is so new and unique to all biological evolution as we know it, I am fascinated as to the possible long-term genetic changes that are going to occur to all vaccinated species, particularly humans.

What natural process is most closely related the act of vaccination? Nothing.

Enjoy.



Originally Posted By: Thermo1223
Our first child we denied everything at child birth except a vitamin K injection.

I didn't even what the antibiotic gel on her eyes(for chlamydia) because I know my wife is clean obviously. My wife who is a nurse told me it isn't a big deal.

Fast forward and we started a delayed schedule which our doctor was on board with for a bit then started touting the party line if we don't listen to them to find another pediatric doctor.


Interesting. At least you thought about it. At least you had the wherewithal to allow your child to complete the bulk of it's metabolic and neuronal development.

I'm curious, does your daughter have any allergies that you are aware of?

 

[simple_gifts]

Quote:

What natural process is most closely related the act of vaccination? Nothing.


Actual exposure to the pathogen before you body has had the opportunity to manufacture antibodies against it.

Vaccinations trigger the NATURAL mechanisms in your body to prepare to defend yourself against intruders.

 

[GumbyJarvis]

Shots are a thrilling pain of childhood every kid needs to experience. It is akin to scraped knees, chicken pox, and teeth falling out.

I have had upwards of 100 shots/IVs/ in my 22 year old life.

Kids should be thankful that they don't have to get that atrocious Peanut Butter Shot the Army gives.

...or the Dreadful Smallpox vaccination.

 

[GumbyJarvis]

on an unrelated note, I miss my smallpox sore.

He was my pandemic plague-waiting-to-happen, he was also my friend.

I named him Molly.

Then he fell off and left me.
Sigh... All I have to remember of him is a darker spot of skin.

 

[jrustles]

Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
Quote:

What natural process is most closely related the act of vaccination? Nothing.


Actual exposure to the pathogen before you body has had the opportunity to manufacture antibodies against it.

Vaccinations trigger the NATURAL mechanisms in your body to prepare to defend yourself against intruders.


I'll try to re-phrase the question: What event, even in the most perilous life any animal in the course of evolutionary history, closely matches having a *specially bred, unusually concentrated, highly genetically active influx of intentionally lab-cultured viral genetic material and response-generating adjuvants, preservatives that completely bypasses the cellular component of our immune system to be deposited directly into the bloodstream where the humoral component of our immune system is taken by surprised and who's response is artificially augmented by said adjuvants? What kind of event??

How is biology supposed to learn a meaningful evolutionary lesson from such adultery, and what changes will 'those lessons' result in to our genetic code???


Bonus question: can the program be used to sabotage the good health, natural defenses and intellectual development of both you and your family, especially your children? I'm not asking whether YOU think that's likely, but if it's possible.

 

[Mr Nice]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2

Some things like chicken pox, flu, etc., I see very little value so long as there are no immunity compromised people in the household, no elderly, etc. Those things are self-inflicted problems created from the criminal act of mothers dumping kids in day care after four to six weeks.



JHZR2,

What happens if the woman needs to go back to work and earn a paycheck ?

 

[Rick in PA]

I've thought about this subject as I have a sister-in-law who doesn't vaccinate her children. I also had a sister-in-law that had polio as a child (before vaccines were available).

I remember discussing polio with my mother before she passed away. She said in the summertime the newspaper would publish the death notices including polio victims, she said it felt like you were reading obituaries from a war. Dr. Jonas Salk was a hero to her.

Life is full of risks. Risk of disease. Risk (albeit small) of side effects from vaccines. Vaccinating our children eliminates the risk of the disease but incurs the cost of a small risk of side effects.

Vaccinating our children also benefits society. We all live healthier lives with the scourge of many diseases suppressed. I see incurring the small risk of side effects as paying our dues to society.

One aspect of people that avoid vaccinations is that to a degree they depend on the vaccinations of others to protect them. They know the risk of disease is minimal because so many others are vaccinated.

Our children had a full set of vaccinations growing up.

 

[Bandito440]

I see we've reached tin foil hat territory.

My mother was born in 1950 and used to tell me about her friends that had been paralyzed by the polio virus. Nasty stuff, that. Decades after the fact, the memories were powerful and had a lasting impact.

That was a different time, I suppose. People were less selfish and thought more about the greater good. I have the Greatest Generation's actions to thank for growing up in the 80s without the fear of polio.

 

[Nate1979]

Originally Posted By: jrustles
Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
Quote:

What natural process is most closely related the act of vaccination? Nothing.


Actual exposure to the pathogen before you body has had the opportunity to manufacture antibodies against it.

Vaccinations trigger the NATURAL mechanisms in your body to prepare to defend yourself against intruders.


I'll try to re-phrase the question: What event, even in the most perilous life any animal in the course of evolutionary history, closely matches having a *specially bred, unusually concentrated, highly genetically active influx of intentionally lab-cultured viral genetic material and response-generating adjuvants, preservatives that completely bypasses the cellular component of our immune system to be deposited directly into the bloodstream where the humoral component of our immune system is taken by surprised and who's response is artificially augmented by said adjuvants? What kind of event??

How is biology supposed to learn a meaningful evolutionary lesson from such adultery, and what changes will 'those lessons' result in to our genetic code???


Bonus question: can the program be used to sabotage the good health, natural defenses and intellectual development of both you and your family, especially your children? I'm not asking whether YOU think that's likely, but if it's possible.

Almost every aspect of modern life is not natural and affects our evolutionary path. I assume you drive a car? You are OK that it runs on unnatural fuels, spews toxins into the air,..... Why don't you get rid of the car and ride a horse. That's more natural.

People have such short memories and today live a completely spoiled life. The medical field has come so far (watch the TV show The Knick). None of it is natural but I for one am happy I don't live in a time when there was no vaccines.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Nick R
Alrighty, so I guess I shouldn't be forced to have a driver license to drive either.


Strawman much ?

Nothing to do with vaccination, your rights to accept it, or the rights to accept some/all part, and at a self paced progress.

The best part of the whole "debate" is that those who blindly accept the drug company's recommended income rate, and then take ownership of same as proving their worthiness have nothing whatsoever to fear from the "uneducated"

Get your shots, and you personally have nothing to fear from what the rest of society does...you are protected, go about your business feeling safe.

Originally Posted By: Nick R
However, I think people should be educated more on the facts. WHY vaccines help, and to the DEGREE they have helped in the past.

I'm interested in how they worked retroactively...

 

[Shannow]

This bloke is Australia's foremost infectious diseases expert (he saved my father's arm after the red cross infected him with staph during a blood donation), and is worth listening to

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/04/3155750.htm?site=canberra
http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2010/s2884330.htm

He's pro vaccination as a whole, but not for chickenpox, measles, and other stuff that is foisted on us to line drug company's pockets.

 

[jrustles]

Originally Posted By: Nate1979

Almost every aspect of modern life is not natural and affects our evolutionary path. I assume you drive a car? You are OK that it runs on unnatural fuels, spews toxins into the air,..... Why don't you get rid of the car and ride a horse. That's more natural.

People have such short memories and today live a completely spoiled life. The medical field has come so far (watch the TV show The Knick). None of it is natural but I for one am happy I don't live in a time when there was no vaccines.


The case is not for natural vs non- in just any capacity, the case if for large scale culturing, in labs, of viruses that we are 'trying to eradicate' and them installing them by means of bypassing all cellular immunity. Driving cars or using microwave ovens does not do that.

One needs to have an extraordinarily powerful TRUST that the (broken) logic they subscribe, that has been solicited to them, is valid and truthful and not corruption.

To grant an entity, with far greater understanding of your immune system than yourself, who is only in business to profit from the treatment of disease (idiopathic, autoimmune, cancer) who manufacture all known virulent strains in their labs and pour an enormous amount of resources to do it, so that they can disseminate the virus (under WHATEVER pretense "killed, attenuated" DIRECTLY INTO THE BLOODSTREAM OF TRUSTING PEOPLE--

is beyond reproach IMO.

And then to spin it, so as to criminalize people who DO NOT PURCHASE AND INSTALL THESE PROFITABLE PRODUCTS as reckless, hurting humanity, backwards, putting others at risk etc IS INSANE. Absolutely bat poop, Orwell's-1984-on-crack INSANE!!

If you got 'the vaccine', and you think it works and you're protected, then what's the problem?

No, seriously, some of you need to seriously review the standards by which you accept 'truths'.

There is a hug difference between knowing and projecting, and I have ZERO patience for people who project their own trust onto other people.

That said, I got vaccines as an infant, nearly died. Got tricked into a vaccine in school (they don't give you a choice, they just herd you in, shotot you up and then put you into the adverse reactions pool. I got pneumonia and nearly died, again. Got gravely sick a few times in that era of my life.

Then stopped. No more vaccines, not one. Guess what?
Yeah, haven't been sick for YEARS. I've gotten infected, that I can tell, cuz your breath gets a little funky, or you might feel a little more run down, but never a full cold or flu sickness, no fever, no bed-riddance. So, is my immune system doing something wrong? (That's rhetorical)


I mean, with issues like this, there is stupidity, and there is perilous stupidity and I have no tolerance for the latter. People suffer (and suffer others) because of their ignorance, and in this way, nothing has changed from the past, only the ignorances.

 

[jrustles]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
This bloke is Australia's foremost infectious diseases expert (he saved my father's arm after the red cross infected him with staph during a blood donation), and is worth listening to

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/04/3155750.htm?site=canberra
http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2010/s2884330.htm

He's pro vaccination as a whole, but not for chickenpox, measles, and other stuff that is foisted on us to line drug company's pockets.


Very interesting material, thanks for sharing.

I hope Professor Collignon is measured and careful with these assertions, because many a medical career has been destroyed for exposing the dangers and daring to question the programs. We've had strong examples set for any future troublemakers already.

Just google Stealth Viruses and the Work of John Martin, MD, PhD.
You'll have to sift through the COINTEL *cough* I mean "debunking" results

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: wsar10
No need to inject a bit of mercury (now re-named) IN HOPES that it will prevent the flu although statistics beg to differ as far as prevention and lessening the effects of the flu.

This is where things gets sensationalized. "A bit of mercury" and such phraseology used by those against vaccinations (or that class of preservatives in general) to whip up fear. This isn't pure, elemental mercury, any more than we have pure sodium or chlorine lingering about in our bodies.

The problem I have is that, as Pop and others have mentioned, far too many people have forgotten some of the horrible diseases that have been eradicated by vaccinations. Let loose a few smallpox or polio cases into a populated center and let the media cover that, and see if the anti-vaccination crowd will hang out there.

I don't think anyone is claiming that vaccinations are absolutely harmless all the time. Nothing is, really. People can have allergic reactions - anything can happen. Take a look at how many people die in North American annually due to even something like the flu. And don't forget polio, smallpox, and other diseases that have been very, very effectively controlled by vaccinations.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
He's pro vaccination as a whole, but not for chickenpox, measles, and other stuff that is foisted on us to line drug company's pockets.

I got the measles, despite vaccinations, though the success rate for the measles vaccination back in the day wasn't that stellar.

 

[jrustles]

Originally Posted By: Garak
[ "A bit of mercury" and such phraseology used by those against vaccinations (or that class of preservatives in general) to whip up fear. This isn't pure, elemental mercury, any more than we have pure sodium or chlorine lingering about in our bodies.


I know. It would be safer if it was pure elemental mercury

Pure elemental mercury is NOT absorbed by the body, and easily rejected, excreted by feces (barring that which vapourizes, where mercury vapour is extremely neurotoxic. (A bonus note: Hg/Ag amalgam fillings are dangerous because they off-gas steadily for the life of the patient, not directly because of the elemental Hg exposure)

What's in vaccines is an organic for of mercury which is much more insideous because in this form, is easily distributed throughout the body. Bioavailable mercuric compounds have profoundly toxic effects on the nervous system, SPECIFICALLY forming neuronal pathways. Mercury causes developing neurofibrils to become "denuded". Nerves are electrical conductors, and the myelin that is supposed to coat the neurofibrils is a fatty sheath, that just like electrical conductors, insulate and guide the direction of developing neural pathways from shorting out and losing potential.



Mercury causes the sheaths to not form properly, and the developing neural pathways just JUMBLE UP into knots, thus the IQ reduction characteristic of chronic mercury poisoning.
Look around, what kind of diseases do we have these days? Lots of dementia? Lots of neurological problems in children? ASD through the roof? Is there a war on neurology/IQ/our brains?


Mercury may not be the sole cause of all neurological damage that's for sure, but it certainly plays a critical role in injuring people these days. Mercury injury is much MORE noticeable in developing children than in adults who's basic neural pathways have long formed, but the effect is still profound on the adult nonetheless.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: jrustles
Look around, what kind of diseases do we have these days? Lots of dementia? Lots of neurological problems in children? ASD through the roof? Is there a war on neurology/IQ/our brains?

For the former issue, remember that people are living longer. Of course, we're going to see more geriatric type illnesses. With respect to children, is there a mental health issue or a diagnostic issue?

Quit with the Youtube links.

I'd rather read the study. In any event, what evidence is there that mercury in an organic compound has neurological effects?

Even in a worst case scenario, accepting all the conspiracy theories and junk science aimed at vaccines as true, a few side effects are a small price to pay for the elimination of diseases such as polio and smallpox.

Smallpox vaccinations don't have as persistent an effect as originally thought. Reintroduce smallpox to the general public and people would be lining up for vaccinations. Some people cannot see the forest for the trees.

 

[jrustles]

Originally Posted By: Garak

Quit with the Youtube links.

I'd rather read the study. In any event, what evidence is there that mercury in an organic compound has neurological effects?


Garak, I refuse to believe that you are this dense, and shall instead accept that you are trolling.

And as they say "you're gonna need a bigger bait"