Euro Oil.....Why?

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Stupid question really, more out of curiosity, why is it in the day and age that most new cars are using 20w oils (Ford, Toyota, Hyundai, Chevy, Honda, etc.) BUT the Euro cars primarily use a 40w oil or a very heavy 30w that is a borderline 40w. Why?

Is it the high speed driving they do?

Build specs?

When I had my 2011 Hyundai Elantra 1.8 it used a 5w20 Oil and I would get about 25 MPG's in town and about 32mpg's on the HWY, (Yeah Hyundai was WAY OFF on their EPA figures) vs my GTI 2.0T using a 40w oil gets about the same MPG's as the Hyundai did.

So if the 20w oil is used to save fuel, how are the Germans getting the same MPG's out of a 40w that the others get out of a 20w?

Just curious if anyone else has ever thought about this, haha.


Jeff

 

[Quattro Pete]

Are the factory recommended OCIs comparable between the Euros and the others you mentioned?


Quote:
When I had my 2011 Hyundai Elantra 1.8 it used a 5w20 Oil and I would get about 25 MPG's in town and about 32mpg's on the HWY,

I'm sure you can find many examples of other cars that run Xw-20 oil and do a lot better than 32 mpg on the hwy.

 

[SilverC6]

The Germans are a little insulated from our CAFE goals as US MB and BMW buyers often take a "gas guzzler" tax in stride at purchase.

VW is in a different position with many of their US vehicles built to a different price point in Mexico just like GM and Chrysler vehicles.

 

[901Memphis]

High speed driving and build specs surely qualify as two big reasons.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Are the factory recommended OCIs comparable between the Euros and the others you mentioned?


Quote:
When I had my 2011 Hyundai Elantra 1.8 it used a 5w20 Oil and I would get about 25 MPG's in town and about 32mpg's on the HWY,

I'm sure you can find many examples of other cars that run Xw-20 oil and do a lot better than 32 mpg on the hwy.



Yes you are right, but I am comparing 2 similar type vehicles in size and weight, with engines similar in size.

The Elantra and the GTI get about the same MPG's with the Elantra beating it out on the HWY by a couple of MPG's, but that is due to gearing more than the oil IMO.

Anyway, just curious.

Jeff

 

[kschachn]

It's a great question and it doesn't seem like you are trolling either. The question is thrown around a lot here on BITOG with no real resolution IMHO.

One would think (but not know) that the designers of those engines that specify the heavier oils have valid technical reasons for doing so. I also don't buy into the "CAFE made me do it" either, at least not to the extent that it is a conspiracy. Sure those rules have forced some design changes, but you get benefits too. I think it is hard to deny the benefits of thinner oil IRT fuel economy, just like it is hard to point to the "piles of failed engines by the roadside that puked due to 0W-20". But as to why the Europeans haven't capitalized on those benefits - if they see them - I have no clue.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
but I am comparing 2 similar type vehicles in size and weight, with engines similar in size.

Engines might be similar in size, but they're completely different designs. One is turbo DI. The other one is not.


FYI, new Corolla 1.8 gets 38 mpg on the hwy.



Anyway, my point was related to the OCI, which you haven't answered. What is Hyundai's OCI? Is it 15K miles like some of the Germans? The reason they prefer thicker oil is to have a buffer. If during that long OCI the oil happens to thin out for various reasons (fuel dilution being one of them), it'll still be thick enough to protect the engine. Now, if you started out with an Xw-20 oil and that happened to thin out, will it still be thick enough to do the job?

 

[Apollo14]

In another thread, Doug Hillary shared an article where Daimler are now moving to thinner oils.

I suspect that part of the reason for the thicker oil is to do with where the focus of engineering effort went. The Euros focused on diesels and turbos and lower co2 and longer drain intervals. This may have precluded moving to thinner oils when others were just looking at running thinner oils in existing designs and stuck to 6 month / 5000 mile intervals until recently. Non euro turbos all seem to run xW30 oil not xW20 so they are not as far away.

 

[Eddie]

I agree with Quatro Pete. Ed

 

[fdcg27]

All grade recommendations represent a compromise.
The Euro makers have traditionally compromised toward the heavier end of the spectrum, while American and Japanese brands have usually had thinner oils recommended.
This is nothing new and has been the case for decades.
In the mid 'nineties, for example, almost any Japanese or American car had 5W-30 or 10W-30 recommeded for all conditions.
A German car, OTOH, might well have had 20W-50 recommended for hot weather and 15W-50 or 10W-40 recommended for temperatures as low as -4F for 15W-50 or -16F for 10W-40. This is the case with my old BMW.
One reason for this difference is that the Euro cars have typically offered longer recommended OCIs than have those from the US or Japan and a thicker oil better accomodates both fuel dilution and shearing over the miles.
Another reason is that the Euros wanted to recommend a grade that would be suitable for any use, whether you were pottering around town or screaming down an unlimited speed road or even tracking the car.
For most users in this country, API spec lighter grades will work just fine in any car, as long as conservative drain intervals are used and the car isn't tracked. There aren't too many places in North America where you can drive as fast as anything beyond a W123 diesel will go for very long without traffic or blue lights closing from behind bringing a halt to the festivities.
If the car with blue lights is fading in your mirror, you can expect a road block somewhere ahead, since the radio is always faster than any car and stop sticks work very well.

 

[SilverC6]

Originally Posted By: kschachn

I also don't buy into the "CAFE made me do it" either, at least not to the extent that it is a conspiracy. Sure those rules have forced some design changes, but you get benefits too. I think it is hard to deny the benefits of thinner oil IRT fuel economy, just like it is hard to point to the "piles of failed engines by the roadside that puked due to 0W-20".


So aluminum bodied F150's, 9 speed automatic transmissions, turbo V6's, and even thinner motor oils are not concessions to US CAFE regulations?

Have consumers demanded and automotive design engineers pushed these expensive leaps in technology?

 

[redbone3]

IMHO: The point is basically to conserve oil, which Europe doesn't have much of and has to import. So, if your goal is to conserve oil you specify a long change interval. If you start out with a heavier oil, when it shears down it is still heavy enough to do the job. So, a political decision, not a mechanical one.

 

[aquariuscsm]

CAFE,plain and simple.

 

[fdcg27]

Consumers want to put fewer of their hard-earned dollars in the fuel tanks of their vehicles.
This trumps CAFE or any other consideration.
It's all about cost per mile and fuel is the primary cost for any daily driver I've ever had.
It's not and never has been a matter of the evil CAFE.
Rather, it's a matter of how many dollars the user wants to spend on fuel.
You want to spend more?

 

[supercity]

The difference is to cater for the enormous numbers of light duty diesel engines with unique requirements. Euro oils are all dual rated gasoline and light diesel. America does not even have a catogary for light diesel let alone a dual rated one.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

Very good points guys i appreciate all your opinions. I don't recall the Hyundai service intervals I did 3k mile intervals on QS UD 5w20 as recommended by Hyundai did some UOA's and found that is about as long as that oil was good for. I switched to Castrol 5w20 edge with titanium gold bottle and 5k is fine.

Ex wife has the car now and i still use the castrol in it every 5k miles. Long lines at the mex/usa boarder kill the oil fast i reckon.

I know my Parents bought a new Lexus RX350 and it's recommended 0w20 every 10k miles though it is not a DI or turbo motor.

So the extended drain intervals on the DI and turbo motors makes sense to the "why".

QP getting 38 mpgs in a corola? You must drive like agrandma getting those figures both corolas i owned never got near that low 30's at best. Everyone dives differently though.

Thanks all for your input.

Jeff

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
QP getting 38 mpgs in a corola? You must drive like agrandma

Nice try but I did not say that that's what I'm getting. If you look at fuelly.com, people are averaging around 34-35 mpg. That's with mixed driving. I have no doubt that 38 mpg hwy is easily achievable. And it's an econobox. Who would drive it like a race car anyway?

 

[skyactiv]

I did a road trip with my GTI today and got an indicated 32.8 MPG doing 75ish MPH. I have the gold bottle Castrol Edge with Titanium 5W30 in it which is an energy conserving oil. I'm coming up on 5K and am doing a UOA.

 

[toneydoc]

Well in Europe they pay about $10 or so per liter or oil.
They pay about $8 or so, maybe more now, for a gallon of gasoline.
They drive small, very fuel efficient cars in many countries. And those small displacement engines run some high RPM at times. And some of the oil sumps probably do not have a tremendous capacity. That is speculation on my part.
Granted there are folks in Mercedes, BMW, Audi, VW that scream at high speeds down the Autobahn. Those folks have plenty of Euros and do not worry what fuel costs them.
They run extended drain intervals all the time. If we were paying that much for oil, we would also. So if they shear the oil, or happen to have some fuel dilution, the oil can handle the insult and continue to protect the engine.
Anyhow. We are blessed to have oil in our country. Yes, the Europeans wish they had it too and could get it as cheap as we do.
The shift to lighter oil in USA is probably due to CAFE standards and better engineering.
You can still run 5w30 or 0w40 in our engines spec'd for 0w20 and they will not blow up.
I am sure some will disagree with that last sentence.
My new Harley runs 20w50 and will crank fine in the cold months. But the oil handles the heat of an air cooled engine well. Can it run on 10w40? You betcha. Many folks do it. And never have problems. Point being is you run an oil and change it according to a reasonable interval and it will do its job.
Consider shear, hi temp, fuel dilution, cost of oil, fuel sump capacity, UOA of similar engines and make an educated decision
Happy motoring

 

[Garak]

Long drains, I would suspect, are a bigger concern in Europe than here. As for CAFE, things are changing, and I understand something similar is coming to the EU, which will apparently include penalties for missing targets.