There are two types of Gasoline....Shell gas and cheap gas....my vehicle only gets the former....
What is Quality gas?
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A top-tier fuel that comes from a gas station, THAT REPLACES THE FUEL FILTER WITH AN APPROVED FILTER. Ed
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: raytseng
Top tier is a measure of cleanliness. So always get top tier as it is a certification of higher "quality" across the board (unless you add your own additives).
"Top Tier" is only one means. BP for the longest time was specifically recommended by BMW and by all accounts their additive met the Top Tier testing requirements easily. However, they didn't want to play the game (licensing fees and submitting test results) until recently. Costco's "Clean Power" (now "Kirkland Signature") additive program hasn't really changed since they got Top Tier certification. What has happened since is that they managed to get the infrastructure into all their stations and they've decided to pay the fee.
However, it seems as if most of the major marketers of fuel are paying for this program if they indeed meet the standard. There are quite a few companies that feel that too high a level of detergent additive on a regular basis is detrimental to performance (Valero for one). 76 claims they go a little bit over the requirements for Top Tier because they believe there are drawbacks.
Compliancy is a bit more than just paying for it.
Originally Posted By: raytseng
Top tier is a measure of cleanliness. So always get top tier as it is a certification of higher "quality" across the board (unless you add your own additives).
"Top Tier" is only one means. BP for the longest time was specifically recommended by BMW and by all accounts their additive met the Top Tier testing requirements easily. However, they didn't want to play the game (licensing fees and submitting test results) until recently. Costco's "Clean Power" (now "Kirkland Signature") additive program hasn't really changed since they got Top Tier certification. What has happened since is that they managed to get the infrastructure into all their stations and they've decided to pay the fee.
However, it seems as if most of the major marketers of fuel are paying for this program if they indeed meet the standard. There are quite a few companies that feel that too high a level of detergent additive on a regular basis is detrimental to performance (Valero for one). 76 claims they go a little bit over the requirements for Top Tier because they believe there are drawbacks.
Compliancy is a bit more than just paying for it.
Originally Posted By: CaspianM
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: raytseng
Top tier is a measure of cleanliness. So always get top tier as it is a certification of higher "quality" across the board (unless you add your own additives).
"Top Tier" is only one means. BP for the longest time was specifically recommended by BMW and by all accounts their additive met the Top Tier testing requirements easily. However, they didn't want to play the game (licensing fees and submitting test results) until recently. Costco's "Clean Power" (now "Kirkland Signature") additive program hasn't really changed since they got Top Tier certification. What has happened since is that they managed to get the infrastructure into all their stations and they've decided to pay the fee.
However, it seems as if most of the major marketers of fuel are paying for this program if they indeed meet the standard. There are quite a few companies that feel that too high a level of detergent additive on a regular basis is detrimental to performance (Valero for one). 76 claims they go a little bit over the requirements for Top Tier because they believe there are drawbacks.
Compliancy is a bit more than just paying for it.
How so? All the organization needs is a statement that the fuel marketer will treat the fuel that it sells with a specific additive, along with the treatment rate that it will use. I don't think they have any reason to cheat though. It's not as if it's going to cost all that much, and they've already paid for the licensing fees. Also - the fuel depots probably aren't going to let anything slip, especially with everything already programmed for specific fuel marketers.
Quote:
http://www.toptiergas.com/faqs.html
How do I become a TOP TIER (TT) gasoline marketer?
There are a few steps involved and they are outlined below. These can also be found at the website www.toptiergas.com.
Step 1: Contact your detergent additive supplier about becoming TOP TIER.
Step 2: Obtain the TOP TIER performance testing data from your detergent additive supplier.
Step 3: Submit the TOP TIER performance testing data to the TOP TIER sponsors for review.
Step 4: Sign the TOP TIER Attestation Form which claims your exact detergent type and treat rate for use at your service stations.
Step 5: Sign a TOP TIER license agreement.
Congratulations! You are in the TOP TIER program for 1 year and can renew as desired.
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: raytseng
Top tier is a measure of cleanliness. So always get top tier as it is a certification of higher "quality" across the board (unless you add your own additives).
"Top Tier" is only one means. BP for the longest time was specifically recommended by BMW and by all accounts their additive met the Top Tier testing requirements easily. However, they didn't want to play the game (licensing fees and submitting test results) until recently. Costco's "Clean Power" (now "Kirkland Signature") additive program hasn't really changed since they got Top Tier certification. What has happened since is that they managed to get the infrastructure into all their stations and they've decided to pay the fee.
However, it seems as if most of the major marketers of fuel are paying for this program if they indeed meet the standard. There are quite a few companies that feel that too high a level of detergent additive on a regular basis is detrimental to performance (Valero for one). 76 claims they go a little bit over the requirements for Top Tier because they believe there are drawbacks.
Compliancy is a bit more than just paying for it.
How so? All the organization needs is a statement that the fuel marketer will treat the fuel that it sells with a specific additive, along with the treatment rate that it will use. I don't think they have any reason to cheat though. It's not as if it's going to cost all that much, and they've already paid for the licensing fees. Also - the fuel depots probably aren't going to let anything slip, especially with everything already programmed for specific fuel marketers.
Quote:
http://www.toptiergas.com/faqs.html
How do I become a TOP TIER (TT) gasoline marketer?
There are a few steps involved and they are outlined below. These can also be found at the website www.toptiergas.com.
Step 1: Contact your detergent additive supplier about becoming TOP TIER.
Step 2: Obtain the TOP TIER performance testing data from your detergent additive supplier.
Step 3: Submit the TOP TIER performance testing data to the TOP TIER sponsors for review.
Step 4: Sign the TOP TIER Attestation Form which claims your exact detergent type and treat rate for use at your service stations.
Step 5: Sign a TOP TIER license agreement.
Congratulations! You are in the TOP TIER program for 1 year and can renew as desired.
Originally Posted By: CaspianM
Testing & passing the requirements on consistent basis could be a hassle. Each brand uses its formulation which could be a task of its own.
Not really. The main requirement is to submit test data, which typically comes from the chemical company that manufactures the additive. Some of the big names like Afton and Lubrizol have ready made additive packages that they'll sell to anyone, and that meet the Top Tier requirement. The next step is to promise that it will be used every single time with the treat rate specified as a minimum - for every branded gas station with that brand name. Most of this work is done by the additive manufacturer, and they probably charge a slight premium for the product that comes with the test results for Top Tier submission.
It wouldn't surprise me if several Top Tier marketers were using the identical additive package. Here's an example:
Quote:
https://www.aftonchemical.com/ProductDataSheets/Fuel/HiTEC-6590D_PDS.pdf
Application
HiTEC® 6590D’s patented technology was designed to meet the challenges of direct injection engine technology, while continuing to deliver excellent performance in the traditional port fuel injection platform. A fully scalable additive with EPA and TOP TIER™ certification, HiTEC® 6590D delivers powerful keep-clean and clean-up performance
at cost effective treat rates.
Quote:
https://www.oronite.com/products/gas-additives.asp
OGA® Top Tier Additive Packages: formulated to meet or exceed Top Tier specifications set by BMW®, General Motors®, Honda®, and Toyota®.
Quote:
http://www2.basf.us/corporate/news_2009/news_release_2009_00538.htm
BASF Keropur® gasoline performance product range completes updated TOP TIER requirements
FLORHAM PARK, NJ, December 8, 2010 – BASF today confirmed that its range of Keropur® gasoline performance products meets the latest TOP TIER detergent gasoline requirements, including generating relevant performance data using independent ISO accredited laboratories.
Quote:
http://www.mcchemical.com/gas_detergents.html
Top Tier detergent gasoline is a recently established, new standard for gasoline performance. Four of the world's top automakers, BMW, General Motors, Honda and Toyota recognize that the current EPA minimum detergent requirements do not go far enough to ensure optimal engine performance.
Testing & passing the requirements on consistent basis could be a hassle. Each brand uses its formulation which could be a task of its own.
Not really. The main requirement is to submit test data, which typically comes from the chemical company that manufactures the additive. Some of the big names like Afton and Lubrizol have ready made additive packages that they'll sell to anyone, and that meet the Top Tier requirement. The next step is to promise that it will be used every single time with the treat rate specified as a minimum - for every branded gas station with that brand name. Most of this work is done by the additive manufacturer, and they probably charge a slight premium for the product that comes with the test results for Top Tier submission.
It wouldn't surprise me if several Top Tier marketers were using the identical additive package. Here's an example:
Quote:
https://www.aftonchemical.com/ProductDataSheets/Fuel/HiTEC-6590D_PDS.pdf
Application
HiTEC® 6590D’s patented technology was designed to meet the challenges of direct injection engine technology, while continuing to deliver excellent performance in the traditional port fuel injection platform. A fully scalable additive with EPA and TOP TIER™ certification, HiTEC® 6590D delivers powerful keep-clean and clean-up performance
at cost effective treat rates.
Quote:
https://www.oronite.com/products/gas-additives.asp
OGA® Top Tier Additive Packages: formulated to meet or exceed Top Tier specifications set by BMW®, General Motors®, Honda®, and Toyota®.
Quote:
http://www2.basf.us/corporate/news_2009/news_release_2009_00538.htm
BASF Keropur® gasoline performance product range completes updated TOP TIER requirements
FLORHAM PARK, NJ, December 8, 2010 – BASF today confirmed that its range of Keropur® gasoline performance products meets the latest TOP TIER detergent gasoline requirements, including generating relevant performance data using independent ISO accredited laboratories.
Quote:
http://www.mcchemical.com/gas_detergents.html
Top Tier detergent gasoline is a recently established, new standard for gasoline performance. Four of the world's top automakers, BMW, General Motors, Honda and Toyota recognize that the current EPA minimum detergent requirements do not go far enough to ensure optimal engine performance.
I am not aware of any of the third party add packs that is being used but possible. Regardless maintaining Toptier specs is still another step that most cheap gas providers (for cost reasons being one)avoid otherwise most would have been already compliant. Last time I looked Techron was used in Chevron gas not Oronite Gasoline Additives (OGA) unless it is the same product. Techron can be used by owners as a stand alone product but at a cost.
Originally Posted By: wolf_06
Is Top Tier quality gas? of 91 octane is?
What is considered a quality gas for a car that calls for 87 octane?
I'm not sure how it is in your neck of the woods, but Top Tier is usually the same price as non-Top Tier, so there's little incentive not to get Top Tier. Unless one's vehicle requires premium, the other usual reason to get it in this province is to avoid ethanol. I would suspect the legislation is similar in your neck of the woods.
If it were me and I were running 87, it would be from a Top Tier station with some decent traffic, or a Husky with a lot of traffic, or something similar. The same would apply running premium, but one may need to exhibit a bit of caution in the winter.
Is Top Tier quality gas? of 91 octane is?
What is considered a quality gas for a car that calls for 87 octane?
I'm not sure how it is in your neck of the woods, but Top Tier is usually the same price as non-Top Tier, so there's little incentive not to get Top Tier. Unless one's vehicle requires premium, the other usual reason to get it in this province is to avoid ethanol. I would suspect the legislation is similar in your neck of the woods.
If it were me and I were running 87, it would be from a Top Tier station with some decent traffic, or a Husky with a lot of traffic, or something similar. The same would apply running premium, but one may need to exhibit a bit of caution in the winter.
Today, all gas is good as it must meet minimum EPA standards. Top Tier is better as its cleanliness standards are about three times that of the EPA. Therefore, any Top Tier gas (or those that you know meet Top Tier standards) is a "quality" gas.
Chinese Buffet = quality gas.
Originally Posted By: CaspianM
I am not aware of any of the third party add packs that is being used but possible. Regardless maintaining Toptier specs is still another step that most cheap gas providers (for cost reasons being one)avoid otherwise most would have been already compliant. Last time I looked Techron was used in Chevron gas not Oronite Gasoline Additives (OGA) unless it is the same product. Techron can be used by owners as a stand alone product but at a cost.
What do you mean by "third party"? All bulk fuel additive packages as well as aftermarket fuel treatments must be registered with the EPA.
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/fuels/registrationfuels/web-gas.htm
You'll see a lot of the aftermarket fuel treatments in a bottle here. There's also denatured ethanol. However, not every fuel marketer has a registered bulk detergent additive in their name. Valero doesn't. Citgo doesn't. Marathon doesn't. They only list alcohols, MTBE, or similar additives. There are big names that aren't listed at all, like Sinclair. What that means is that a third party makes the detergent additives that go into their fuel. It's not just possible that they buy from third parties but actual. Why is it so hard for you to acknowledge that fairly simple fact?
The big companies are Afton Chemical, Oronite, Lubrizol, BASF, etc. Some of these are custom formulations for specific customers, but others are available to anyone. This is a very specialized operation, and just because you make fuel doesn't mean you'll want to also be a chemical company. Some companies like Shell and ExxonMobil have joint ventures (Infineum in their case).
All fuel is also registered.
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/fuels/registrationfuels/web-fuel.htm
I am not aware of any of the third party add packs that is being used but possible. Regardless maintaining Toptier specs is still another step that most cheap gas providers (for cost reasons being one)avoid otherwise most would have been already compliant. Last time I looked Techron was used in Chevron gas not Oronite Gasoline Additives (OGA) unless it is the same product. Techron can be used by owners as a stand alone product but at a cost.
What do you mean by "third party"? All bulk fuel additive packages as well as aftermarket fuel treatments must be registered with the EPA.
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/fuels/registrationfuels/web-gas.htm
You'll see a lot of the aftermarket fuel treatments in a bottle here. There's also denatured ethanol. However, not every fuel marketer has a registered bulk detergent additive in their name. Valero doesn't. Citgo doesn't. Marathon doesn't. They only list alcohols, MTBE, or similar additives. There are big names that aren't listed at all, like Sinclair. What that means is that a third party makes the detergent additives that go into their fuel. It's not just possible that they buy from third parties but actual. Why is it so hard for you to acknowledge that fairly simple fact?
The big companies are Afton Chemical, Oronite, Lubrizol, BASF, etc. Some of these are custom formulations for specific customers, but others are available to anyone. This is a very specialized operation, and just because you make fuel doesn't mean you'll want to also be a chemical company. Some companies like Shell and ExxonMobil have joint ventures (Infineum in their case).
All fuel is also registered.
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/fuels/registrationfuels/web-fuel.htm
Originally Posted By: raytseng
. . . Octane is a different measure, and is not exactly quality. It may make no difference in your car, or maybe it will. Check your owners manual and see if it says anything about it.
You may also check enthusiasts forum for your car to try to determine that even if the owners manual says nothing; your modern car is smart enough to take advantage of higher octane, and then you need to do math to see if it makes financial sense to you.
On the flipside though, nobody provides a valid downside to high octane gas other than it costs more. So if the costs were exactly the same everyone would just fillup with the 91.
Exactly. I experimented with 93 octane recently in my Buick, which runs fine on 87. The car seems to drive with a little more "pride in its stride," so to speak. But the numbers didn't work out for me: only about a 6-7% increase in mpg, while the 93 costs a good 15% more.
Both my usual 87 and the 93 were ethanol-free.
. . . Octane is a different measure, and is not exactly quality. It may make no difference in your car, or maybe it will. Check your owners manual and see if it says anything about it.
You may also check enthusiasts forum for your car to try to determine that even if the owners manual says nothing; your modern car is smart enough to take advantage of higher octane, and then you need to do math to see if it makes financial sense to you.
On the flipside though, nobody provides a valid downside to high octane gas other than it costs more. So if the costs were exactly the same everyone would just fillup with the 91.
Exactly. I experimented with 93 octane recently in my Buick, which runs fine on 87. The car seems to drive with a little more "pride in its stride," so to speak. But the numbers didn't work out for me: only about a 6-7% increase in mpg, while the 93 costs a good 15% more.
Both my usual 87 and the 93 were ethanol-free.
Originally Posted By: Benzadmiral
Originally Posted By: raytseng
. . . Octane is a different measure, and is not exactly quality. It may make no difference in your car, or maybe it will. Check your owners manual and see if it says anything about it.
You may also check enthusiasts forum for your car to try to determine that even if the owners manual says nothing; your modern car is smart enough to take advantage of higher octane, and then you need to do math to see if it makes financial sense to you.
On the flipside though, nobody provides a valid downside to high octane gas other than it costs more. So if the costs were exactly the same everyone would just fillup with the 91.
Exactly. I experimented with 93 octane recently in my Buick, which runs fine on 87. The car seems to drive with a little more "pride in its stride," so to speak. But the numbers didn't work out for me: only about a 6-7% increase in mpg, while the 93 costs a good 15% more.
Both my usual 87 and the 93 were ethanol-free.
There's a lot that the carmakers won't tell you.
However, octane rating isn't specifically a "quality" but rather a grading issue. I'd think poor quality fuel would be heavier in gummy residues, contaminated with water, or have lower quality bulk fuel additives. The fuel is graded for specific purposes. Whether or not that's "better" is another matter.
Originally Posted By: raytseng
. . . Octane is a different measure, and is not exactly quality. It may make no difference in your car, or maybe it will. Check your owners manual and see if it says anything about it.
You may also check enthusiasts forum for your car to try to determine that even if the owners manual says nothing; your modern car is smart enough to take advantage of higher octane, and then you need to do math to see if it makes financial sense to you.
On the flipside though, nobody provides a valid downside to high octane gas other than it costs more. So if the costs were exactly the same everyone would just fillup with the 91.
Exactly. I experimented with 93 octane recently in my Buick, which runs fine on 87. The car seems to drive with a little more "pride in its stride," so to speak. But the numbers didn't work out for me: only about a 6-7% increase in mpg, while the 93 costs a good 15% more.
Both my usual 87 and the 93 were ethanol-free.
There's a lot that the carmakers won't tell you.
However, octane rating isn't specifically a "quality" but rather a grading issue. I'd think poor quality fuel would be heavier in gummy residues, contaminated with water, or have lower quality bulk fuel additives. The fuel is graded for specific purposes. Whether or not that's "better" is another matter.
Originally Posted By: wolf_06
Is Top Tier quality gas? of 91 octane is?
What is considered a quality gas for a car that calls for 87 octane?
Its a top-tier gas. i.e. it has the detergent in it (which is probably barely more expensive than the gas it displaces). There are brands that have the detergent but don't pay for the top-tier certification. Like Costco.
I once had occasion to visit a refinery that supplied Chevron and a major independent in my area. This is typical. On the way out the door, the Chevron trucks stop at a loading rack and get a dose of the detergent. A gas jobber once told me that the majors are more interested in the ability of the detergent to act as a tracer. That is, to allow the major to confirm that his retailer was really using his gas and not that of a competitor, rather than any big difference in quality.
Some engines can take advantage of higher octane. Some can't. When I loaned my car to my college age kid this summer I compromised; I told her to either get name brand gas, or mid-grade no-name.
These days almost all gas stations are "high-volume" and have fresh product. Its not like there are neighborhood stations anymore that pump a few gallons and rely on car repairs for a living. If the "fresh" gas is really an issue, then that would argue against using high octane gas, since that is usually a slower mover at the pump.
Is Top Tier quality gas? of 91 octane is?
What is considered a quality gas for a car that calls for 87 octane?
Its a top-tier gas. i.e. it has the detergent in it (which is probably barely more expensive than the gas it displaces). There are brands that have the detergent but don't pay for the top-tier certification. Like Costco.
I once had occasion to visit a refinery that supplied Chevron and a major independent in my area. This is typical. On the way out the door, the Chevron trucks stop at a loading rack and get a dose of the detergent. A gas jobber once told me that the majors are more interested in the ability of the detergent to act as a tracer. That is, to allow the major to confirm that his retailer was really using his gas and not that of a competitor, rather than any big difference in quality.
Some engines can take advantage of higher octane. Some can't. When I loaned my car to my college age kid this summer I compromised; I told her to either get name brand gas, or mid-grade no-name.
These days almost all gas stations are "high-volume" and have fresh product. Its not like there are neighborhood stations anymore that pump a few gallons and rely on car repairs for a living. If the "fresh" gas is really an issue, then that would argue against using high octane gas, since that is usually a slower mover at the pump.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: jimbrewer
Originally Posted By: wolf_06
Is Top Tier quality gas? of 91 octane is?
What is considered a quality gas for a car that calls for 87 octane?
Its a top-tier gas. i.e. it has the detergent in it (which is probably barely more expensive than the gas it displaces). There are brands that have the detergent but don't pay for the top-tier certification. Like Costco.
I once had occasion to visit a refinery that supplied Chevron and a major independent in my area. This is typical. On the way out the door, the Chevron trucks stop at a loading rack and get a dose of the detergent. A gas jobber once told me that the majors are more interested in the ability of the detergent to act as a tracer. That is, to allow the major to confirm that his retailer was really using his gas and not that of a competitor, rather than any big difference in quality.
One - Costco gas is now on the Top Tier list. The main issue was that they have a different model where the detergent is added at the station via semi-automated equipment, and that they didn't roll out the use of a customized detergent additive until every station had said equipment. One of the requirements for Top Tier certification is that they must attest to all stations of a brand using a required level of additive that meets the Top Tier requirement.
I'm not sure how practical trying to "trace" the fuel would be - at least these days. The accounting is all done at the loading racks using automated equipment. They know exactly who the driver and transportation company is picking up the fuel delivery and where it's destined. The fuel would be sold by the branded fuel marketer to its licensed franchisee. It might have been possible years ago, but these days there's too much information to form an audit trail. If they're taking on a delivery from some outlaw delivery service, they're going to be able to tell with an audit. The meters on the pump are going to be running and they'll know if someone has been loading more fuel than they've bought from the marketer (that is supposed to be their exclusive supplier). I use "supplier" in a broad sense of the seller of the fuel. The fuel itself could come from a different loading terminal, but technically it's supposed to be sold by an exclusive commodity dealer (i.e. Chevron, BP, Sunoco, etc).
Originally Posted By: wolf_06
Is Top Tier quality gas? of 91 octane is?
What is considered a quality gas for a car that calls for 87 octane?
Its a top-tier gas. i.e. it has the detergent in it (which is probably barely more expensive than the gas it displaces). There are brands that have the detergent but don't pay for the top-tier certification. Like Costco.
I once had occasion to visit a refinery that supplied Chevron and a major independent in my area. This is typical. On the way out the door, the Chevron trucks stop at a loading rack and get a dose of the detergent. A gas jobber once told me that the majors are more interested in the ability of the detergent to act as a tracer. That is, to allow the major to confirm that his retailer was really using his gas and not that of a competitor, rather than any big difference in quality.
One - Costco gas is now on the Top Tier list. The main issue was that they have a different model where the detergent is added at the station via semi-automated equipment, and that they didn't roll out the use of a customized detergent additive until every station had said equipment. One of the requirements for Top Tier certification is that they must attest to all stations of a brand using a required level of additive that meets the Top Tier requirement.
I'm not sure how practical trying to "trace" the fuel would be - at least these days. The accounting is all done at the loading racks using automated equipment. They know exactly who the driver and transportation company is picking up the fuel delivery and where it's destined. The fuel would be sold by the branded fuel marketer to its licensed franchisee. It might have been possible years ago, but these days there's too much information to form an audit trail. If they're taking on a delivery from some outlaw delivery service, they're going to be able to tell with an audit. The meters on the pump are going to be running and they'll know if someone has been loading more fuel than they've bought from the marketer (that is supposed to be their exclusive supplier). I use "supplier" in a broad sense of the seller of the fuel. The fuel itself could come from a different loading terminal, but technically it's supposed to be sold by an exclusive commodity dealer (i.e. Chevron, BP, Sunoco, etc).
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