Defective Filter. Should I send it back?

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Ok
I just opened the link and read it
I think they have alot of wiggle room here though
Were the oil lines clogged
Were they the correct size
Who made the conversion kit
Anyway,this is the pits
I hope you get a good lawyer because they will have a whole team
Keep us posted
And DO NOT give up that filter unless your lawyer tells you to
 
Never seen anything close to that posted here before. Imo, it would take a large amount of pressure/psid to collapse a center tube and interior like that. Does the VW have an oil pump relief valve. It should. Was it functioning properly?

As said before, imo you are going to have to account for (variables) the proper installation and functioning of the remote set up and anything leading to and from the remote set up.

Might be able to find a lawyer to take this but cost benefit may not be worth it.

I agree with Kruse on the previous page, they might offer a good will gesture.
 
That little motor couldn't build anywhere near the amount of pressure needed to collapse the inside like that. The seal would also fail long before as well.
 
Originally Posted By: splinter

The late Gene Berg said regarding air cooled VW oil pump pressures, “I've even seen some produce over 200 PSI and a 26mm make over 300 PSI when cold.”


source:
http://www.geneberg.com/article.php?ArticleID=243

Excellent article. I now also notice that the oil filter specs no integral bypass, so the oil pressure is completely regulated by the two (according to the article) pressure relief valves. And as the article appears to relate their proper functioning is critical.
 
Yes there are 2 relief valves in the motor that consist of a plunger and spring. They are different from one another. Both were new when the motor was freshened 2 years ago. They come in a kit form.
 
It takes a lot of pressure to crush a center tube. From the photo's I do not see why oil would not still flow through the filter. If some of the filter's internals got into the engine then I think you've got a case.
 
Maybe you should read this:

http://www.aftermarketsuppliers.org/Councils/Filter-Manufacturers-Council/TSBs-2/English/88-3R2.pdf

As someone who worked for a filter manufacturer, and for a time was involved in warranty, i've seen collapsed center tubes before. Not just automotive but for large diesel engines.

Someone sent me this thread via email, so i popped in to see what's up.

Any filter manufacturer won't want to "lose" a filter. Everything is logged in for legal purposes. From when the filter is received, until the complaint is answered. And the returned filter is kept in storage for X number of days. ( Varies by manufacturer)

You may not like the answer you receive. And if you don't, you have the right to get the filter back and use independent testing and go the legal route yourself if you're so inclined.

The basics are simple. Every filter manufacturer manufactures their filter to be free from defects. So it would be up to the filter manufacturer to analyze the claimed defect in the filter.

As this is a collapsed center tube, were the component parts incorrect for the specific filter part number or not assembled correctly. If they were the correct parts and assembled correctly, then something else caused the collapse beyond the collapse "specification". In which case you'll be told it was not a design or manufacturing defect and therefore not the filters fault.

Never cut open a filter before returning it, as testing can't be done and you will have to prove the parts you sent back were from the specific defective filter. Believe it or not there have been cases where someone sends back component parts from two brands of filters and claims they were all part of the same filter. Either to deceive or because they had multiple cut open filters and didn't know what was from what.
 
Oh and one other thing.

If you deem you want to send a filter back, call the manufacturer directly on the toll free number. They will send a filter retrieval kit for you to ship the filter back to them.

Make sure you've drained the oil out. Which means, turn it upside down for 24 hours for the oil to drain. It will take time as the residual oil on the media is drained due to gravity.

It you have an oil sample to send back that would help as well.
 
Thanks Filter Guy.
I called Purolator and they did send me the return kit. I'm still going to hold on to it for a while longer. I want a few more people to see it first hand. My son also has a roommate in college who is in the Auto Tech program. The school has a borescope and a couple of the professors are very interested in seeing it. They plan to scope down inside to video and take still pictures. I want all the evidence I can get before sending it in.

The filter will not be cut open or marked up in any way. The outside is in perfect condition.
 
Before you send your filter off to the professors, ask them if they know what the VW oil filter collapse specification is. If they don't know.....

I see others have mentioned this was mounted on a remote mount filter head and that this element does not have a built in by-pass. If that is correct then what you need to do is determine if your mounting bracket does have a by-pass built into it. The filter you chose without an internal by-pass is to be used on an engine that has a by-pass built into the block. All filters need a by-pass. Either internally or in the mounting area.

Your next step is to make sure your mounting adaptor has a by-pass. The easiest way to do this is to take the inlet line off and look inside. You should see a spring contraption. If you see one, you have a by-pass. If you don't, you've just voided engine and filter manufacturers warranty.

Now, let's assume you do have a by-pass in your mounting adaptor. What is it's setting? Do you know? If not contact the company who sold it to you. Also ask them if it meets VW by-pass specifications. I'd be interested to hear what their rating is. I have an idea what the VW by-pass setting should be. And if I really want to know, I can ask a few engineering buddies who build the VW USA filters OEM wise.

If you want my opinion, and I wasn't employed by Purolator, the technical bulletin that I posted the link to is where you'll find your answer. I highly doubt, but can't say for certain, that it was the filters fault. Only Purolator can determine if the right component parts were used and assembled correctly. And they will know, btw.

I think you have a classic collapsed center tube that has seen to much pressure beyond the by-pass valves setting to relieve the pressure spike the filter has seen. This caused the center tube to distort.

The cause is probably traced back to either the pressure regulating valve being stuck open allowing to much pressure and/or contaminant lodging in the by-pass to keep it closed. Neither or which would be a filters fault. This can happen with rebuilt engines because the engine has to much contaminant in it when re-assembled , no matter how much care is given.

I've even seen one rebuild where the mechanic left a shop towel in the engine and that was chewed up and sent to the filter which collapsed. Inspection found blue fibers in the by-pass and the filter itself, which are not the color of the filter media itself, so an easy claim to deny. Not to mention those blue fibers were everywhere inside the engine. Somehow they were told the element also had blue fibers and so it was the filters fault. To my knowledge of 30+ years experience, no one uses blue filter media in oil filters.

If you do send the filter off to the professors and they can determine that they see in their scope metal particles inside the filter on the dirty side of the media ( the side closest to the metal can) , that is not normal. And it may be the reason why the regulating valve or by-pass had a problem. Oil analysis should help determine what type of metal particles were found in the oil. Large particles, chunks of metal, can't be held in suspension in the oil so they won't be analyzed.

And it's time to remind, that the lower limit of visibility to the human eye at 20/20 vision is 40 micron. Your filter is much more efficient at removing particles smaller than that.
 
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Thank you again Filter Guy. I'll print out your response for reference. I'll probably send in the filter week after next and between now and then I'll do some research on the filter block. It came on the car so I have no idea who the manufacturer is. There are no markings so I'll take it to my machine shop for them to look at.

I just can't believe that little 40 hp motor with 40 psi oil pressure would have enough to bend and collapse the center tube. Time will tell.
 
So the filter is mounted onto the block and not a remote mount.

In that case, see if the block has a by-pass and if so what is the setting. Provided you can get a straight answer from the supplier.

Your 40 psi is the normal flow rate. When you start the vehicle, there is no oil flow and you will see a lot more flow rate. That's why there is a pressure spike at start up.
Hence the pressure "regulating" valve for the oil pump. Another factor is the viscosity of the oil and ambient temperature. Once the oil starts returning, and maybe warms up, then the regulating valve should return your flow back to normal pressure of 40psi plus or minus.
 
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Originally Posted By: Filter guy
Your 40 psi is the normal flow rate. When you start the vehicle, there is no oil flow and you will see a lot more flow rate. That's why there is a pressure spike at start up.


I have multiple problems with these statements, not the least of which is that PSI does not measure flow rate. Indeed, pressure can exist in the complete absence of flow.

That rest of it simply doesn't make any sense. "No oil flow" == "a lot more flow rate"? Run that by me again? (No, don't).
 
Originally Posted By: HangFire
Originally Posted By: Filter guy
Your 40 psi is the normal flow rate. When you start the vehicle, there is no oil flow and you will see a lot more flow rate. That's why there is a pressure spike at start up.


I have multiple problems with these statements, not the least of which is that PSI does not measure flow rate. Indeed, pressure can exist in the complete absence of flow.

That rest of it simply doesn't make any sense. "No oil flow" == "a lot more flow rate"? Run that by me again? (No, don't).


With cold engine oil, bypass/partial bypass sometimes occurs.

Some increase in pressure to move the relatively thick oil though the engine, the filter media, and also through the bypass is required.

Once the engine begins to warm up, oil flows through the media as you would expect.

The filter media efficiency, effectiveness of the bypass, and the oil's flowability at starting temperature all combine to result in the brief start up clatter you hear from some engines.
 
Originally Posted By: SilverC6

With cold engine oil, bypass/partial bypass sometimes occurs.

Some increase in pressure to move the relatively thick oil though the engine, the filter media, and also through the bypass is required.

Once the engine begins to warm up, oil flows through the media as you would expect.

The filter media efficiency, effectiveness of the bypass, and the oil's flowability at starting temperature all combine to result in the brief start up clatter you hear from some engines.


Thanks, but I already understand all that. It's Filter guy's nonsensical gibberish I have an issue with.
 
Originally Posted By: HangFire
Originally Posted By: SilverC6

With cold engine oil, bypass/partial bypass sometimes occurs.

Some increase in pressure to move the relatively thick oil though the engine, the filter media, and also through the bypass is required.

Once the engine begins to warm up, oil flows through the media as you would expect.

The filter media efficiency, effectiveness of the bypass, and the oil's flowability at starting temperature all combine to result in the brief start up clatter you hear from some engines.


Thanks, but I already understand all that. It's Filter guy's nonsensical gibberish I have an issue with.


Take it up with the engine manufacturers. Most claim the average PSI rating under "normal" conditions is around 40 PSI. This is not the cold start spec.

What the filter by-pass is rated at is PSID. Pounds per Square Inch Differential. Not flow rate. As the discussion was about the ability of the by-pass to prevent a collapse situation, that is one of the keys.

The other key would be the "collapse" specification. I'm reasonably confident the Purolator element met or exceeded that specification. As would any US built after market filter. Some brands may exceed the spec by as much as nearly 50%.
 
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