I hate brakes....

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Originally Posted By: artificialist

Don't be so quick to blame China for bad rotors. I often have to replace MOPAR rotors that were made in Canada.


Let me guess: Intrepid/Visison/Concorde (LH chassis)?

We had a 93 Vision TSi that was one of the best cars I've ever owned... except for two things: brake rotors and headlamps. I finally got the brakes squared away with aftermarket rotors and pads, and fixed the headlamps by snagging some (too expensive) headlamps from a European-market Chrysler Vision and adapting them to work with the north American market headlamp brackets since they were made to work with headlamp levelling motors. Euro market cars always get better lighting systems than we do. :-/
 
Originally Posted By: KrisZ


If initially the brakes were nice and smooth, chances are the run out is not a problem, but instead uneven pad deposits are the most likely culprit. There are multiple methods to deal with that and they don’t require new parts most of the time.

If the brakes are pulsating right away or very shortly after the job, I would check out the run out, or see if the pads are properly seated.


You've actually got it backwards when it comes to runout. Runout generally causes a pulsation after time, not when new. See the posts in this thread for more explanation. Runout causes uneven wear that eventually leads to pulsation.

As I posted above, in theory huge amounts of runout could cause a pulsation with brand new brakes, but that's not really how it works in the real world. Runout that's over the factory spec can cause rotors to wear unevenly. Over time, that leads to pedal pulsation as the rotors develop thickness variation.
 
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: artificialist

Don't be so quick to blame China for bad rotors. I often have to replace MOPAR rotors that were made in Canada.


Let me guess: Intrepid/Visison/Concorde (LH chassis)?

We had a 93 Vision TSi that was one of the best cars I've ever owned... except for two things: brake rotors and headlamps. I finally got the brakes squared away with aftermarket rotors and pads, and fixed the headlamps by snagging some (too expensive) headlamps from a European-market Chrysler Vision and adapting them to work with the north American market headlamp brackets since they were made to work with headlamp levelling motors. Euro market cars always get better lighting systems than we do. :-/


2005+ Jeep Grand Cherokee
2008+ T&C van
And numerous others throughout the years.

Also, one reason European-spec cars get better lighting is because the laws governing headlights are different in Europe.
 
Originally Posted By: artificialist
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: artificialist

Don't be so quick to blame China for bad rotors. I often have to replace MOPAR rotors that were made in Canada.


Let me guess: Intrepid/Visison/Concorde (LH chassis)?

We had a 93 Vision TSi that was one of the best cars I've ever owned... except for two things: brake rotors and headlamps. I finally got the brakes squared away with aftermarket rotors and pads, and fixed the headlamps by snagging some (too expensive) headlamps from a European-market Chrysler Vision and adapting them to work with the north American market headlamp brackets since they were made to work with headlamp levelling motors. Euro market cars always get better lighting systems than we do. :-/




Also, one reason European-spec cars get better lighting is because the laws governing headlights are different in Europe.


Oh, I understand that. But the way North American laws governing lamps are written, ours could be made a lot better if the manufacturers wanted to do so- and in particular the LH platform headlamps of the early 90s were among the worst ever released on the market in the US and Canada. In all honesty they've gotten much better in the last decade. But there are still some night-blind cars out on the North American roads.
 
Originally Posted By: Subdued
rebed the pads once in a while people...



sssshh, you are giving away our best secret!

We own a fleet and the first thing we do if we get a driver complaining of big time pulsation is check the lining thicknes and, if in spec, bed those brakes.

I'd say it has saved us thousands of dollars in what would normally be repairs...
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: Subdued
rebed the pads once in a while people...



sssshh, you are giving away our best secret!

We own a fleet and the first thing we do if we get a driver complaining of big time pulsation is check the lining thicknes and, if in spec, bed those brakes.

I'd say it has saved us thousands of dollars in what would normally be repairs...


Just asking!
smile.gif


What is your suggestion for the best way to re-bed the brakes?

10 hard stops?
 
Originally Posted By: stephen9666


You've actually got it backwards when it comes to runout. Runout generally causes a pulsation after time, not when new. See the posts in this thread for more explanation. Runout causes uneven wear that eventually leads to pulsation.

As I posted above, in theory huge amounts of runout could cause a pulsation with brand new brakes, but that's not really how it works in the real world. Runout that's over the factory spec can cause rotors to wear unevenly. Over time, that leads to pedal pulsation as the rotors develop thickness variation.


All rotors will have runout, ALL of them, then you have the hub to rotor interface that adds even more runout. The thing is, that it will only be felt in the brake pedal at about 2-3 thou, maybe less as I'm going from memory. Please explain then, how a rotor exceeding the felt runout will not be felt right away.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Char Baby
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: Subdued
rebed the pads once in a while people...



sssshh, you are giving away our best secret!

We own a fleet and the first thing we do if we get a driver complaining of big time pulsation is check the lining thicknes and, if in spec, bed those brakes.

I'd say it has saved us thousands of dollars in what would normally be repairs...


Just asking!
smile.gif


What is your suggestion for the best way to re-bed the brakes?

10 hard stops?


Sorry I missed you.

There is no "set" method, as each cars braking capacity is what sets the number of repetitions required.

On a car like mine with dinner plate sized brembos on all 4 corners it takes 10 stops from like 70 or 80 to get them hot.

A smaller car might only need 4 or 5 stops from 60 mph. Your going for pad transfer, but this is just a result that indicates success.

My trucks like 5 stops from 60 or 70.
 
Originally Posted By: actionstan
I wonder if I should have been more clear.. I don't think this issue could be run out.. I guess its not impossible, and maybe I mis-understand how runout would cause this. To me.. if a rotor or hub or anything had excessive run out, or was un-aligned it would cause this issue from day 1 of installation.

When.. actually from day one.. the new rotor/brake combo was perfectly smooth.. now after a few 1000 miles.. the pulsation has infested itself.. and is slowly getting worse.. can this still be run out? I don't see how it could be.. to me it would either be a warped rotor or pad deposits..


The way it works is you get nice new flat rotors that mount up with some amount of run-out (flat rotors but mounted crooked), if the amount is excessive the floating caliper system absorbs it for a while until there is a buildup of pad material on the high spots, then you can feel the brake pulsation. The uniformed will declare "warped rotors" and blame a hot stop or cheap metal, but in fact the rotor is just as flat as it was new, and it may be very flat indeed, just mounted at an axis that doesn't correspond to the geometric plane the caliper is mounted in.

In short you don't know squat about your brake install until you check rotor runout with a dial caliper. Sometimes you can correct it by rotating the mounting position on the hub (on floating rotors) and trying different spots. Sometimes you need to turn it or replace it, mark the high side by how many thou it is out, and take it to a machine shop specializing in speed not Pep Boys et al.

Read this: http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/-warped-brake-disc-and-other-myths
 
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Originally Posted By: HangFire

Read this: http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/-warped-brake-disc-and-other-myths


An excellent, if rather dated, technical paper. Carroll Smith was a very smart guy who probably forgot more than most will ever know about braking systems.

My good friend and fellow track rat David Zeckhausen of Zeckhausen Racing is a guy who worked for and with Stoptech for a long time developing their systems. He is THE MAN when it comes to high performance braking...
 
Back to the OP; having worked at AAP for a time, I can say assuredly that their "Ceramic" brakes (orange box) are absolute garbage. One of our guys had them on a 99 Ram 1500 and they lasted 4 months, no more than 5k miles before being worn to 25% and severely glazed. We had so many returns that we stopped offering them and would try to sway people away when they asked for them. The Golds are generally better even though they're "downmarket", and the Platinums much better and not much more $ if at all.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: FusilliJerry82
Back to the OP; having worked at AAP for a time, I can say assuredly that their "Ceramic" brakes (orange box) are absolute garbage. One of our guys had them on a 99 Ram 1500 and they lasted 4 months, no more than 5k miles before being worn to 25% and severely glazed. We had so many returns that we stopped offering them and would try to sway people away when they asked for them. The Golds are generally better even though they're "downmarket", and the Platinums much better and not much more $ if at all.


I am using the AAP Golds ceramic on two vehicles right now. They're stopping power seem on par with the other ceramic pads from previous brake job on the same vehicles. I'd really like to try the Platinum ceramic or even the new Platinum semi mets.
 
We have tried the Platinums on two service vans and they have chewed up the rotors like CRAZY. I still like the Gold series better IMHO...
 
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