Oil additives

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: 123Saab
Originally Posted By: jk_636
MMO zealots....sounds like someone is

Yep...


Nope. It's the matchlock pistol of oil additives. its day has come and long gone but for a few diehards who are unwilling to realize that not only has time has moved on, but so has oil technology.

MMO hasn't. Even Valvoline, around since 1866, has moved far beyond what it started as.

You can complain all you want, but your making my point for me.

"but there are still a handful of guys that will attack because their favorite oil or additive has some competition"

Wonder who said that? Someone who gets upset when MMO is questioned.

 

[boxcartommie22]

trajan, that's the valve cover hand test...lol

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: 123Saab
Originally Posted By: jk_636
MMO zealots....sounds like someone is

Yep...


Nope. It's the matchlock pistol of oil additives. its day has come and long gone but for a few diehards who are unwilling to realize that not only has time has moved on, but so has oil technology.

MMO hasn't. Even Valvoline, around since 1866, has moved far beyond what it started as.

You can complain all you want, but your making my point for me.

"but there are still a handful of guys that will attack because their favorite oil or additive has some competition"

Wonder who said that? Someone who gets upset when MMO is questioned.



As a cleaner it seems to work alright over the course of a 3K OCI. Personally i wouldn't run it every OC but for a sticking lifter or similar its worth a shot.
Kerosene works fine with a stiff brush and that's pretty old stuff too.

 

[ChiaroBlue]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Cera Tec by LiquiMoly is Boron Nitride in an oil carrier.

Boron type components are already included in most motor oils.

LiquiMoly Oil Additive by LiquiMoly is a suspension of SOLID MoS2 powders in an oil carrier.

Better moly chemistries are already included in most motor oil PI additive packages.



This is my first post on BITOG, so bare with me. First, as disclaimer let me state that I have tried Liqui Moly Cera Tec both in my 2006 diesel (MB 320 CDI) and also in the engine and synchronised manual gearbox of my V12 engined gasoline car. In both cars I notice greatly reduced engine braking after the addition of Ceratec and very smooth shifting in my manual car with Ceratec in the gear box. In the manual gasoline car, reduced engine braking is very nice as the car is no longer so "jumpy" when driving slowly in first or second gear. After the addition of Ceratec, the following specific problem disappeared: When standing still, I occasionally could not shift into first gear and had to shift into second and then into first. With some 7 per cent Ceratec in the gearbox this problem does not occur anymore.

What made me confident enough to try Cera Tec was the fact the Liqui Moly recommends the addition of Ceratec to their own manufacturer (VW 507.00 etc) approved oils (for example here: http://forums.thecarlounge.com/showthread.php?5816920-Liqui-Moly-Oil-Forum). Also, the German version of Amazon (Amazon.de) has many positive customer reviews of Ceratec (with many of the reviewers commenting on reduced engine braking, quieter running engine etc). In addition, a test report on Cera Tec from TÜV Thüringen Anlagentechnik GmbH can be found (8141.102.04.40 – 174113). I also contacted Liqui Moly to make sure that Ceratec really can be used in synchronised gear boxes (contrary to what I had read on BITOG).

This is the reply I received from Liqui Moly concerning the usage of Cera Tec in synchronized gear boxes (Yes!) and limited slip differentials (No!):

___________

Dear Sir,

thank very much for your mail and for your interest in Liqui Moly products.

Your questions:
Is LM ceratec usable in:

1) a synchronised gear box (GL-5 80w-90 gear oil recommended
=> Yes, in synchronised gear boxes and diffs without self-locking, it is optimal to add CERA TEC in the same best dosage as in engines from 7 till max. 8% to theoil!

2) self-locking rear and front differential (gl5 85w-90 recommended), or is this considered a "wet clutch"?
=> Do not use CERA TEC in self locking diffs in which is a wet clutch oil in use. Becaus in thouse case you will change the necessary friction for the wet clutch and than there will be no right diff locking!

If you have any more question, contact us again!

___________

Now, I understand that Boron type components are already included in most motor oils – but to my understanding the hexagonal form of boron nitride (a solid lubricant) is not usually included, correct? Can we really dismiss hexagonal boron nitride just because boron type components are included in oils? What do we know about the efficiency of hexagonal boron nitride as a friction modifier? What do we know (scientifically) about the negative effects, if any?

Could anyone comment on the following paper on the Tribological effects of bn and mos2 nanoparticles added to polyalphaolefin oil in piston skirt/cylinder liner tests:
http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/MM/857.PDF

Or on this patent for a transmission oil containing hexagonal boron nitride: http://www.google.com/patents/US20080280793

Interestingly, the first paper states that: “The dispersion of nano-sized materials in oils is an emerging concept in lubrication. Nanomaterial additives may help counteract friction and save energy”.

 

[MolaKule]

I think the summary and Figure 1 give the information you are looking for.


Summary:
Quote:


The tribological effects of BN and MoS2 nanoparticles
added to polyalphaolefin oil in piston skirt/cylinder liner tests were studied. The results showed that BN did not offer any improvement in friction under the tested conditions, while MoS2 nanoparticles was very effective in reducing both friction and wear compared to the base PAO10 oil.

Furthermore, the use of surfactant was not only beneficial in suspending the nanoparticles in the solution, but also lowered friction and wear by itself.

The analysis of Raman spectra showed that MoS2 nanoparticles added to PAO10 oil form an aligned MoS2 tribofilm, which assisted in significantly lowering the coefficient of friction and reducing the wear.


The Hex Boron Nitride nanoparticles in 10 cSt PAO basically showed no reduction in friction and was in the noise.

They used a colloidal moly, suspended moly powder particles in an oil carrier. They mixed this with a 10 cSt PAO and it showed a reduction in friction and wear.

In the majority of motor oils formulated today they use an advanced form of moly called tri-nuclear moly co-invented by Exxon Mobil and Infineum. This is a soluble moly. I see no reason to add any extraneous moly to an oil that already contains an advanced form of MoS2.

Oils with no moly have alternative friction modifiers just as effective or more so.

 

[jk_636]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: 123Saab
Originally Posted By: jk_636
MMO zealots....sounds like someone is

Yep...


Nope. It's the matchlock pistol of oil additives. its day has come and long gone but for a few diehards who are unwilling to realize that not only has time has moved on, but so has oil technology.

MMO hasn't. Even Valvoline, around since 1866, has moved far beyond what it started as.

You can complain all you want, but your making my point for me.

"but there are still a handful of guys that will attack because their favorite oil or additive has some competition"

Wonder who said that? Someone who gets upset when MMO is questioned.



As a cleaner it seems to work alright over the course of a 3K OCI. Personally i wouldn't run it every OC but for a sticking lifter or similar its worth a shot.
Kerosene works fine with a stiff brush and that's pretty old stuff too.


Hes starting to get a nibble...dont bite...

 

[ChiaroBlue]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
I think the summary and Figure 1 give the information you are looking for.


Summary:
Quote:


The tribological effects of BN and MoS2 nanoparticles
added to polyalphaolefin oil in piston skirt/cylinder liner tests were studied. The results showed that BN did not offer any improvement in friction under the tested conditions, while MoS2 nanoparticles was very effective in reducing both friction and wear compared to the base PAO10 oil.

Furthermore, the use of surfactant was not only beneficial in suspending the nanoparticles in the solution, but also lowered friction and wear by itself.

The analysis of Raman spectra showed that MoS2 nanoparticles added to PAO10 oil form an aligned MoS2 tribofilm, which assisted in significantly lowering the coefficient of friction and reducing the wear.


The Hex Boron Nitride nanoparticles in 10 cSt PAO basically showed no reduction in friction and was in the noise.

They used a colloidal moly, suspended moly powder particles in an oil carrier. They mixed this with a 10 cSt PAO and it showed a reduction in friction and wear.

In the majority of motor oils formulated today they use an advanced form of moly called tri-nuclear moly co-invented by Exxon Mobil and Infineum. This is a soluble moly. I see no reason to add any extraneous moly to an oil that already contains an advanced form of MoS2.

Oils with no moly have alternative friction modifiers just as effective or more so.



Yes, I also noticed that hBN was less effective in this test as compared to MoS2. However, hBN did reduce wear compared to pure PAO(if not friction). I wonder what the reason for this is, does hBN not work well with pure PAO for example?

It easy to find studies were hBN has been found to be effective, for example this one where hBN was added to two different brands of 15W-40 diesel oil and was found to lower friction and reduce the wear rate by 58%:
http://www.jurnalteknologi.utm.my/index.php/jurnalteknologi/article/view/2685/2022

Also I find this interesting: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2012/02/rice-20120202.html
Apparently addition of hBN increases the thermal conductivity mineral oil. Could this effect be of benefit in a car engine or not?

Furthermore, I stumbled upon this Henkel product, SLA 1710. Is this how hBN fluid is marketed to additive manufacturers (repackagers?):

https://tds.us.henkel.com/NA/UT/HNAUTTDS.nsf/web/754A2376005024588525759E0070BF73/$File/SLA%201710-EN.pdf

"Provides a revenue generator with a differentiated product against traditional graphite or PTFE lubricants by offering extreme pressure performance with friction reduction properties from the boron nitride"

"Provides cost-effective usage in finished lubricant to provide superior lubrication
performance, consumer confidence and repeat sales"

 

[Trav]

They used the 4 ball test.
This is Mobil's take on that.
Quote:
The 4-ball wear test is a test designed to evaluate the performance of a gear oil. The 4-ball wear test is not included as a part of any industry-wide recognized engine oil specifications (e.g. ILSAC GF-5, API SN, or ACEA specifications). ExxonMobil does not regard this test as a useful indicator of engine oil performance.


Every snake oil producer uses some sort of test and they all cut engine wear by 50%, increase mileage by x% and so on.

 

[ChiaroBlue]

Originally Posted By: Trav
They used the 4 ball test.
This is Mobil's take on that.
Quote:
The 4-ball wear test is a test designed to evaluate the performance of a gear oil. The 4-ball wear test is not included as a part of any industry-wide recognized engine oil specifications (e.g. ILSAC GF-5, API SN, or ACEA specifications). ExxonMobil does not regard this test as a useful indicator of engine oil performance.


Every snake oil producer uses some sort of test and they all cut engine wear by 50%, increase mileage by x% and so on.


I notice this has been discussed a lot on BITOG before - but all other things (sludge protection, shear stability, VI etc) being equal, which motor oil should one choose:

1. an oil with very bad performance in the four ball wear test.
2. an oil with outstanding performance in four ball wear test.

Or should one be totally indifferent in choosing between the two (hypothetic) oils?

I would note also that the persons using the four ball wear test are scientists based in Malaysia, not snake oil producers...

 

[ChiaroBlue]

Originally Posted By: ChiaroBlue

Yes, I also noticed that hBN was less effective in this test as compared to MoS2. However, hBN did reduce wear compared to pure PAO(if not friction). I wonder what the reason for this is, does hBN not work well with pure PAO for example?


It appears that this paper may have an answer to my question, i.e. that the effect of hBN on friction depends on the materials being lubricated and that hBN can reduce wear without reducing friction in some cases...

http://www.nanoarchive.org/11988/1/7_169_176.pdf

The relevant quotes are:

"In particular, the addition of even 1wt. % hexagonal boron nitride (h-BN) powder in oil, a grease or fuel provides excellent tribological properties."

"For the first time, Kimura et al. had conducted [3] a series of detailed sliding experiments, which reveals the behavior of h-BN when added to the lubricating oil. In the case of sliding of bearing steel vs. itself, h-BN slightly increases the coefficient of friction, but dramatically decreases wear; and boron is found to remain on rubbing surfaces in form of non-stoichiometric oxide. However, when bearing steel is sliding against cast iron powdered h-BN decreases the coefficient of friction and the remnant is mostly BN. There is suggested a number of recent results confirming that h-BN is effective in reducing wear if used as a liquid lubricant additive – see citations in [4]."

Based on the (apparently) scientific papers that are available on using hexagonal boron nitride as an lubricant additive, it would seem to me that we are dealing with something else than a pure "snake oil". Here is a paper from Turkey, btw, which even inludes data on wear metals from running engines: http://www.scribd.com/doc/79309531/Boronmax-Engine-Oil-Additive (yes, this one was done by an additive producer)

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: ChiaroBlue
Originally Posted By: Trav
They used the 4 ball test.
This is Mobil's take on that.
Quote:
The 4-ball wear test is a test designed to evaluate the performance of a gear oil. The 4-ball wear test is not included as a part of any industry-wide recognized engine oil specifications (e.g. ILSAC GF-5, API SN, or ACEA specifications). ExxonMobil does not regard this test as a useful indicator of engine oil performance.


Every snake oil producer uses some sort of test and they all cut engine wear by 50%, increase mileage by x% and so on.


I notice this has been discussed a lot on BITOG before - but all other things (sludge protection, shear stability, VI etc) being equal, which motor oil should one choose:

1. an oil with very bad performance in the four ball wear test.
2. an oil with outstanding performance in four ball wear test.

Or should one be totally indifferent in choosing between the two (hypothetic) oils?

I would note also that the persons using the four ball wear test are scientists based in Malaysia, not snake oil producers...


It doesn't matter who they are and where they are from, it is not an accepted test for engine oil and Mobil states as much. I would forget that stuff and anything using a one arm bandit.
It seems they are not testing this for engine but electronic components, what happens when used in X doesn't mean its applicable to Y or Z.

Just buy the oil based on manufacturers spec and desired OCI. If its a old spec see if the manufacturers new spec is backward compatible eg Dexos.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
... However, when bearing steel is sliding against cast iron powdered h-BN decreases the coefficient of friction and the remnant is mostly BN. There is suggested a number of recent results confirming that h-BN is effective in reducing wear if used as a liquid lubricant additive...


Yes and these papers are speaking to professional PI package developers, and not to OTC additives on the shelves of Walmart.

The additive boron nitride is already an Additive in motor oils, either in esterified form or in colloidal suspension.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: ChiaroBlue


I notice this has been discussed a lot on BITOG before - but all other things (sludge protection, shear stability, VI etc) being equal, which motor oil should one choose:

1. an oil with very bad performance in the four ball wear test.
2. an oil with outstanding performance in four ball wear test.

Or should one be totally indifferent in choosing between the two (hypothetic) oils?


I would note also that the persons using the four ball wear test are scientists based in Malaysia, not snake oil producers...


As discussed many times before, there are many four-ball tests.
Some test for wear, some test for friction coefficient, etc.

The four-ball test is primarily for the lubricant developer to help him/her determine which base oi/additive package combination might perform according to specifications.

So the answer is:

One should be totally indifferent in choosing between the two (hypothetic) oils according to the "Four-Ball Wear Test."

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
... However, when bearing steel is sliding against cast iron powdered h-BN decreases the coefficient of friction and the remnant is mostly BN. There is suggested a number of recent results confirming that h-BN is effective in reducing wear if used as a liquid lubricant additive...


Yes and these papers are speaking to professional PI package developers, and not to OTC additives on the shelves of Walmart.

The additive boron nitride is already an Additive in motor oils, either in esterified form or in colloidal suspension.


In addition, Borate compounds are Multi-Functional compounds:

Quote:
Depending on the synthesis and subsequent functionalization, borates (boron compounds) can be considered as Anti-Wear Additives, extreme pressure additives (EP), friction modifiers, and oxidation inhibitors, and rust inhibitors, and pH modifiers to control acidity.

Oxidation inhibitors, rust inhibitors, and alkilinity agents would fall under the classification of "Surfactants."

 

[ChiaroBlue]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule

The additive boron nitride is already an Additive in motor oils, either in esterified form or in colloidal suspension.


Please could you provide some factual evidence for hexagonal boron nitride in colloidal suspension already being included as an additive in commercially available motor oil?

The reasons for asking for this (and why I am a bit skeptical about your statement) are as follows:

- When reading the scientific papers, it would appear that the use of nano- or almost nano-sized hBN in oil was "discovered" in 1999. Liqui Moly Ceratec ( - Still in this day, there seems to be general excitement about using nano- or almost nano sized solids in oils, which would be hard to explain if hBN was already a standard additive in engine oil (From the 2012 paper that I referred to earlier: “The dispersion of nano-sized materials in oils is an emerging concept in lubrication.”)
- Furthermore, it seems that nano- or almost nano-sized hBN is quite expensive, Ceratec at least makes 5 liters of oil some 37 – 50 % more expensive (To maximize LM bottom line surely, but according to publicly available information hBN is more expensive than MoS2)
- If hBN solids truly are already in engine oils, why are the oils not milkish in color (such as new oil treated with Ceratec)?

 

[Trav]

So why doesn't LM include it in their own engine oils? Europeans are use to paying high prices for engine oil another 10 Euro isn't going to matter.

 

[ChiaroBlue]

Originally Posted By: Trav
So why doesn't LM include it in their own engine oils? Europeans are use to paying high prices for engine oil another 10 Euro isn't going to matter.


Thats a good question that only LM could answer. Maybe Ceratec really works but LM have calculated that their profit from the additive is bigger than could be extracted by including it in the oils? Or then maybe Ceratec is a [censored] product and their oils would no longer meet approvals with Ceratec added (and LM is doing their customers a disservice when recommending the addition of Ceratec to their motor oils)?

 

[MolaKule]

Yep, when the popular press introduces a new word such as "nano," which sounds very scientific but has been in the scientific literature for over a hundred years, it sounds impressive.

Too many people are much too impressed with these words.

Quote:
If hBN solids truly are already in engine oils, why are the oils not milkish in color (such as new oil treated with Ceratec)?


Whether or not the oil is "milkish" in color depends on 1.) what type of borate compound is used and, 2.) how much borate compound is added to the oil.

A formulated oil may look totally transparent with a slight amber color, but shine a diffuse, high intesity light through it and it if the oil contains borates, it will appear milky.


Did you have an opportunity to read this from "Question of the Day?

Quote:
Depending on the synthesis and subsequent functionalization, borates (boron compounds) can be considered as Anti-Wear Additives, extreme pressure additives (EP), friction modifiers, and oxidation inhibitors, and rust inhibitors, and pH modifiers to control acidity.

Oxidation inhibitors, rust inhibitors, and alkilinity agents would fall under the classification of "Surfactants."

So the two additional functions would be Friction Modifcation and Surfactant.



Quote:
When reading the scientific papers, it would appear that the use of nano- or almost nano-sized hBN in oil was "discovered" in 1999. Liqui Moly Ceratec (div>


There is something you need to know about Academic papers and the introduction of chemical compounds by industry.

In many (but not all) Academic Research Labs (ARL) there is often a tie between the (ARL) and industry.

In obtaining grants from either industry or government, the Academic Research Lab submits a proposal for research. That proposal goes to the university's financial weenies who says, "we can foot the bill for $XXX dollars. You must find the extra money outside the University."

So industry may see the proposal and help support the research.
But industry will want a piece of the pie if the research yields a sellable product.

Industry and the Uni may share in the patent application and profits of subsequent products.

Written into the agreement(s) is a clause that says chemical company A shall have first rights to the formulation, process, and patent even before a paper is published.

So when a paper comes out of Academia, the industry may have already been producing the product, or including it in a PI package two or more years before public disclosure.

 

[Alfa_Hadera]

Originally Posted By: ChiaroBlue
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Cera Tec by LiquiMoly is Boron Nitride in an oil carrier.

Boron type components are already included in most motor oils.

LiquiMoly Oil Additive by LiquiMoly is a suspension of SOLID MoS2 powders in an oil carrier.

Better moly chemistries are already included in most motor oil PI additive packages.



This is my first post on BITOG, so bare with me. First, as disclaimer let me state that I have tried Liqui Moly Cera Tec both in my 2006 diesel (MB 320 CDI) and also in the engine and synchronised manual gearbox of my V12 engined gasoline car. In both cars I notice greatly reduced engine braking after the addition of Ceratec and very smooth shifting in my manual car with Ceratec in the gear box. In the manual gasoline car, reduced engine braking is very nice as the car is no longer so "jumpy" when driving slowly in first or second gear. After the addition of Ceratec, the following specific problem disappeared: When standing still, I occasionally could not shift into first gear and had to shift into second and then into first. With some 7 per cent Ceratec in the gearbox this problem does not occur anymore.

What made me confident enough to try Cera Tec was the fact the Liqui Moly recommends the addition of Ceratec to their own manufacturer (VW 507.00 etc) approved oils (for example here: http://forums.thecarlounge.com/showthread.php?5816920-Liqui-Moly-Oil-Forum). Also, the German version of Amazon (Amazon.de) has many positive customer reviews of Ceratec (with many of the reviewers commenting on reduced engine braking, quieter running engine etc). In addition, a test report on Cera Tec from TÜV Thüringen Anlagentechnik GmbH can be found (8141.102.04.40 – 174113). I also contacted Liqui Moly to make sure that Ceratec really can be used in synchronised gear boxes (contrary to what I had read on BITOG).

This is the reply I received from Liqui Moly concerning the usage of Cera Tec in synchronized gear boxes (Yes!) and limited slip differentials (No!):

___________

Dear Sir,

thank very much for your mail and for your interest in Liqui Moly products.

Your questions:
Is LM ceratec usable in:

1) a synchronised gear box (GL-5 80w-90 gear oil recommended
=> Yes, in synchronised gear boxes and diffs without self-locking, it is optimal to add CERA TEC in the same best dosage as in engines from 7 till max. 8% to theoil!

2) self-locking rear and front differential (gl5 85w-90 recommended), or is this considered a "wet clutch"?
=> Do not use CERA TEC in self locking diffs in which is a wet clutch oil in use. Becaus in thouse case you will change the necessary friction for the wet clutch and than there will be no right diff locking!

If you have any more question, contact us again!

___________

Now, I understand that Boron type components are already included in most motor oils – but to my understanding the hexagonal form of boron nitride (a solid lubricant) is not usually included, correct? Can we really dismiss hexagonal boron nitride just because boron type components are included in oils? What do we know about the efficiency of hexagonal boron nitride as a friction modifier? What do we know (scientifically) about the negative effects, if any?

Could anyone comment on the following paper on the Tribological effects of bn and mos2 nanoparticles added to polyalphaolefin oil in piston skirt/cylinder liner tests:
http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/MM/857.PDF

Or on this patent for a transmission oil containing hexagonal boron nitride: http://www.google.com/patents/US20080280793

Interestingly, the first paper states that: “The dispersion of nano-sized materials in oils is an emerging concept in lubrication. Nanomaterial additives may help counteract friction and save energy”.




Isn't engine braking mostly attributed to seal and compression(ability) vs. Friction?

As this would lead me to think the seal gets compromised by Cera tec...

 

[MolaKule]

In gasoline engines braking is due first to a partial vacuum due to a near closed throttle, and secondarily internal engine friction.