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#3458846 - 08/18/14 04:29 PM Re: Deeza Let Me Down [Re: artbuc]
NMBurb02 Offline


Registered: 09/12/12
Posts: 1331
Loc: Crowntown, CA
Originally Posted By: artbuc
Just talked with Rock. They no longer have Deeza outers and only have a few inners. Looks like Rock and Deeza are parting ways. All Rock will do is give me a store credit for the part (no credit on S&H) but I have to pay for return shipping. Big whoopdedoo! I will net about $10-12 on the store credit plus have to buy/install a replacement and get a wheel alignment. I would say the Deeza warranty is pretty much useless.

Labeling Deeza's warranty as "pretty much useless" because of the business decisions (no longer carrying Deeza parts) and economics related to the retailer you chose to purchase the part through is unfair. If you purchased the part from a retailer 1/8 mile from your house and did not have to deal with shipping, would Deeza's warranty be the savior of all mankind?
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#3458902 - 08/18/14 05:54 PM Re: Deeza Let Me Down [Re: artbuc]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 9937
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
Originally Posted By: artbuc
Originally Posted By: Trav
Part problem or grease problem? Did you forget to grease it? No offense but it happens to be best of us.
I cant see it wearing out in 5K not even a cheap Chinese it its got the right grease in it.


I talked with D about grease before I installed it. They assured me it came greased from the factory and I should not grease it. I forget what they suggested as the service interval but I am sure it was more than 5200 miles. I just greased it for the first time last week when I rotated tires. I do believe inadequate grease from the factory is the most likely reason for premature failure although you could see grease through the zerk port before I installed the zerk.


Deeza quality wasn't the issue, not greasing a new joint was. Joints with a grease fitting contain only a very small amount of assy grease and not enough to lube the joint in service.
I figured as much when i saw the mileage. I did it once years ago, it happens, trying to finish the job up late at night or some such thing.
No one is perfect, that guy died over 2000 yrs ago. Lesson learned, move on.
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#3459061 - 08/18/14 08:40 PM Re: Deeza Let Me Down [Re: artbuc]
artificialist Offline


Registered: 09/23/07
Posts: 6899
Loc: Florida
Yes, even if parts ship with some grease in them, that grease isn't enough. I once met a guy who did a front end rebuild on a Crown Vic and he used all Moog Problem Solver parts. After 5000 miles passed, the car was making terrible noises, and the owner didn't know why.

I told him he would have to redo some of the work he did, and remember to buy a grease gun. I also suggested premium grease, because it might extend the life of a part.
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#3459226 - 08/19/14 04:15 AM Re: Deeza Let Me Down [Re: Trav]
artbuc Offline


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 481
Loc: West Chester, PA
Originally Posted By: Trav
Deeza quality wasn't the issue, not greasing a new joint was. Joints with a grease fitting contain only a very small amount of assy grease and not enough to lube the joint in service.
I figured as much when i saw the mileage. I did it once years ago, it happens, trying to finish the job up late at night or some such thing.
No one is perfect, that guy died over 2000 yrs ago. Lesson learned, move on.


I bet the Deeza rep either misunderstood my question or was confusing inner and outers. When you look at their tie-rod end web page, they show inner and outer product quality features on the same page. The inner is on the top of the page and one of the features is factory pre-lubrication.

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#3459229 - 08/19/14 04:30 AM Re: Deeza Let Me Down [Re: artbuc]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 9937
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
Yes, that sounds about right. Lube (or lack of) is the maim cause of tie rod failure.
Ball joints and their lube get beaten to death with high shock loads, smooth roads and better grease really help prolong their life.
Tie rods on the other hand are a relatively low shock part and with a good lube a quality joint can go 20 yrs or more. Without it, we know now, about 5K.
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#3459570 - 08/19/14 02:27 PM Re: Deeza Let Me Down [Re: Trav]
artbuc Offline


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 481
Loc: West Chester, PA
Quick update. RockAuto is continuing to sell D stuff just that D is out of stock on my part. Expect new inventory in a week or so. Tore into her today. Good news is the D inner is as stiff as she was when I installed her last year. I am considering going with a Raybestos Professional grade replacement outer. It costs almost 60% more than D but I can get it now.

Any opinions on Raybestos Pro vs Deeza? I know some like Moog Problem Solvers but I have heard too many stories about sketchy Moog quality.

I do have a question about lubrication. How can inner tie-rod ends, ball joints and outer tie-rod ends without zerk fittings can be adequately lubricated at the factory whereas a tie-rod end with a zerk can not be? IOW, why can't Deeza be right when they say their outer tie-rod ends with zerk fittings are factory lubricated and do not need to be greased at installation?


Edited by artbuc (08/19/14 02:29 PM)

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#3459696 - 08/19/14 05:43 PM Re: Deeza Let Me Down [Re: artbuc]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 9937
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
Raybestos Pro are good parts.
Originally Posted By: artbuc
How can inner tie-rod ends, ball joints and outer tie-rod ends without zerk fittings can be adequately lubricated at the factory

The inner is a linear joint with very little loading, the grease they put in there is more than enough for a long life, it is covered by a boot and not meant for regular servicing.
Lube for life joints are properly filled with high quality grease then have the boots sealed in place with split rings similar to a key ring.There is no place for this grease to go, it is captured in the joint and boot.

Originally Posted By: artbuc
why can't Deeza be right when they say their outer tie-rod ends with zerk fittings are factory lubricated and do not need to be greased at installation?

That is someone on the phone grossly misinformed.
The fact the joint does not have a boot that is sealed prohibits filling it with enough grease until after it has been installed. This type of boot also needs some sort of relief to let grease out if overfilled.

They smear assy grease in there to prevent rust possibly plugging the grease channels in the joint.
_________________________
ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.

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#3459749 - 08/19/14 07:20 PM Re: Deeza Let Me Down [Re: artbuc]
ronbo Offline


Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 569
Loc: western ny, usa
Sorry for the Op problem. Put 4 Deeza sway bar links on my RAV4 this March and I'm happy with them. Also bought at RockAuto.

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#3460218 - 08/20/14 11:22 AM Re: Deeza Let Me Down [Re: Trav]
artbuc Offline


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 481
Loc: West Chester, PA
Originally Posted By: Trav
Raybestos Pro are good parts.
Originally Posted By: artbuc
How can inner tie-rod ends, ball joints and outer tie-rod ends without zerk fittings can be adequately lubricated at the factory

The inner is a linear joint with very little loading, the grease they put in there is more than enough for a long life, it is covered by a boot and not meant for regular servicing.
Lube for life joints are properly filled with high quality grease then have the boots sealed in place with split rings similar to a key ring.There is no place for this grease to go, it is captured in the joint and boot.

Originally Posted By: artbuc
why can't Deeza be right when they say their outer tie-rod ends with zerk fittings are factory lubricated and do not need to be greased at installation?

That is someone on the phone grossly misinformed.
The fact the joint does not have a boot that is sealed prohibits filling it with enough grease until after it has been installed. This type of boot also needs some sort of relief to let grease out if overfilled.

They smear assy grease in there to prevent rust possibly plugging the grease channels in the joint.



Well, I guess it is not that straightforward. I called Raybestos Tech Service to ask if I needed to grease their Professional Grade greasable outer tie-rod ends before first use. He quickly said no, not necessary because they are factory lubed. I asked how many miles before first lube and he said it was not too critical but the first oil change would be a good idea. I told him about my Deeza experience and he back-tracked somewhat saying it might be a good idea to add a little grease. I pushed back and said that is not a very good answer. Either they have to be lubed or they don't. He said he needed to pull up the drawing to examine their construction. After a couple minutes he came back and said it was probably a good idea to add a "little" grease before putting it into service.

My Deeza ends are back in stock at Rockauto and I ordered one this morning.


Edited by artbuc (08/20/14 11:22 AM)

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#3460282 - 08/20/14 12:12 PM Re: Deeza Let Me Down [Re: artbuc]
Quest Offline


Registered: 12/19/04
Posts: 6405
Loc: beaver land EH?
Regardless of what their lowly paid tech support/customer service reps would say: my take is that if it comes with zerk fittings (greasable type), then always grease them before or immediately after 1st time installation.

You missed that part then the blame (unfortunately) is on you.

The sealed type of ball joints, tie-rod ends, etc. use a different methodology (it's packed inside with nylon materials, with just a little bit of assembly grease within those sealed joints) to provide the long service life and lubrication.

Q.

I've been using Deeza on all my own/my clienteles automobiles: from balljoints to sway bar end links. For those that came with zerk fittings: I always pump grease into it(zerk installed of course) and swing the ball joint quite a bit to distribute the grease before installation. Once installed: I'll pump a bit more grease into it to "finish" off the job.

The oldest Deeza I've installed so far is into it's 5th year of service: every year that vehicle came in for 2 rounds of service checks and ball joints still good...and then of course: I'd pump a bit of grease into it to "finish" off the deal before lowering it down onto the garage floor.
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#3460316 - 08/20/14 12:50 PM Re: Deeza Let Me Down [Re: artbuc]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 9937
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
Originally Posted By: artbuc
Originally Posted By: Trav
Raybestos Pro are good parts.
Originally Posted By: artbuc
How can inner tie-rod ends, ball joints and outer tie-rod ends without zerk fittings can be adequately lubricated at the factory

The inner is a linear joint with very little loading, the grease they put in there is more than enough for a long life, it is covered by a boot and not meant for regular servicing.
Lube for life joints are properly filled with high quality grease then have the boots sealed in place with split rings similar to a key ring.There is no place for this grease to go, it is captured in the joint and boot.

Originally Posted By: artbuc
why can't Deeza be right when they say their outer tie-rod ends with zerk fittings are factory lubricated and do not need to be greased at installation?

That is someone on the phone grossly misinformed.
The fact the joint does not have a boot that is sealed prohibits filling it with enough grease until after it has been installed. This type of boot also needs some sort of relief to let grease out if overfilled.

They smear assy grease in there to prevent rust possibly plugging the grease channels in the joint.



Well, I guess it is not that straightforward. I called Raybestos Tech Service to ask if I needed to grease their Professional Grade greasable outer tie-rod ends before first use. He quickly said no, not necessary because they are factory lubed. I asked how many miles before first lube and he said it was not too critical but the first oil change would be a good idea. I told him about my Deeza experience and he back-tracked somewhat saying it might be a good idea to add a little grease. I pushed back and said that is not a very good answer. Either they have to be lubed or they don't. He said he needed to pull up the drawing to examine their construction. After a couple minutes he came back and said it was probably a good idea to add a "little" grease before putting it into service.

My Deeza ends are back in stock at Rockauto and I ordered one this morning.


Most of the time (there are exceptions) these tech lines are manned by clueless people working for short money working the phones looking up info as they go along.
Chances are the person you talked to has never replaced a tie rod or ball joint in their life.

Back when i started trade school 40 years ago i did lower ball joints on my moms car at home, i didn't grease them.
The guy at the parts store said they were pre greased (taking his word for it was the first mistake), i didn't ask the teacher (second mistake).
A few months later the ball came right out its socket and that was that, it was on the side of the road. Lesson learned and never repeated.
_________________________
ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.

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#3460357 - 08/20/14 01:42 PM Re: Deeza Let Me Down [Re: Trav]
artbuc Offline


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 481
Loc: West Chester, PA
Yep, I'll be givin' her a good greasin' and exercisin' before she hits the road. Thanks for all of your responses.

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#3460621 - 08/20/14 06:57 PM Re: Deeza Let Me Down [Re: artbuc]
The_Eric Offline


Registered: 03/31/10
Posts: 3361
Loc: Iowa
Originally Posted By: artbuc

Well, I guess it is not that straightforward. I called Raybestos Tech Service to ask if I needed to grease their Professional Grade greasable outer tie-rod ends before first use. He quickly said no, not necessary because they are factory lubed. I asked how many miles before first lube and he said it was not too critical but the first oil change would be a good idea. I told him about my Deeza experience and he back-tracked somewhat saying it might be a good idea to add a little grease. I pushed back and said that is not a very good answer. Either they have to be lubed or they don't. He said he needed to pull up the drawing to examine their construction. After a couple minutes he came back and said it was probably a good idea to add a "little" grease before putting it into service.

My Deeza ends are back in stock at Rockauto and I ordered one this morning.



The phone monkey was somewhat right, but probably only by chance...

The Raybestos Pro joints are for the most part constructed of a polished ball and a polymer bearing surface which requires very little lube to function properly. Of course it's a good idea to squirt some in there on install and also at regular intervals if it doesn't have a tightly sealed boot.

Now that being said, not all Raybestos Pro joints are of the polymer/polished ball construction. Some are still the bronze gusher bearing type and will need a fair bit of lube on a regular basis.
_________________________
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#3460922 - 08/21/14 03:07 AM Re: Deeza Let Me Down [Re: The_Eric]
artbuc Offline


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 481
Loc: West Chester, PA
Originally Posted By: The_Eric
Originally Posted By: artbuc

Well, I guess it is not that straightforward. I called Raybestos Tech Service to ask if I needed to grease their Professional Grade greasable outer tie-rod ends before first use. He quickly said no, not necessary because they are factory lubed. I asked how many miles before first lube and he said it was not too critical but the first oil change would be a good idea. I told him about my Deeza experience and he back-tracked somewhat saying it might be a good idea to add a little grease. I pushed back and said that is not a very good answer. Either they have to be lubed or they don't. He said he needed to pull up the drawing to examine their construction. After a couple minutes he came back and said it was probably a good idea to add a "little" grease before putting it into service.

My Deeza ends are back in stock at Rockauto and I ordered one this morning.



The phone monkey was somewhat right, but probably only by chance...

The Raybestos Pro joints are for the most part constructed of a polished ball and a polymer bearing surface which requires very little lube to function properly. Of course it's a good idea to squirt some in there on install and also at regular intervals if it doesn't have a tightly sealed boot.

Now that being said, not all Raybestos Pro joints are of the polymer/polished ball construction. Some are still the bronze gusher bearing type and will need a fair bit of lube on a regular basis.


Interesting. Wonder which design drawing he was looking at? Wonder why he did not tell me there are two different designs. IIRC, the product descriptions I have seen on various websites say they have gusher bearings.







Edited by artbuc (08/21/14 03:07 AM)

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#3461409 - 08/21/14 02:35 PM Re: Deeza Let Me Down [Re: artbuc]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 9937
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
The way i understand it is the gusher type is more commonly used in greasable joints.
Who knows, i cant be bothered to start researching it, its easier just to put some grease in there.
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