Adding Mos2 in a BMW N54 engine with DI?

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: Alext
Engine is fine - just heard good stuff about LM Mos2 and wanted to try in the hope of moderating heat and reducing friction etc as the bottle suggests. Definitely made the engine more quiet on idle anyway. Engine performance is still smooth as ever.

Volkswagen likes MoS2 it as well... as a way to reduce engine heat. The Liqui-Moly MoS2 product is fine as well. Either way, you'll be in good company.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Alext
Engine is fine - just heard good stuff about LM Mos2 and wanted to try in the hope of moderating heat and reducing friction etc as the bottle suggests. Definitely made the engine more quiet on idle anyway. Engine performance is still smooth as ever.

So, in sum:

1. The engine had no prior issues.
2. You liked what you read on the label.
3. The only perceived improvement is in noise level, which is basically the only thing more subject to the placebo effect than the butt dyno.
4. You're not even attempting to gather any evidence that would tell you whether the additive is having the claimed efffects.

Does this sound like a good basis on which to be pouring additives into a multi-thousand-dollar engine that you love?

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
placebo effect


placebo effect is an actual cure, or improvement of a condition with an inactive ingredient.

What you are describing is no real cure, through the use of a supposedly active ingredient...

That's describes allopathy better than placebo.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
placebo effect


placebo effect is an actual cure, or improvement of a condition with an inactive ingredient.

What you are describing is no real cure, through the use of a supposedly active ingredient...

That's describes allopathy better than placebo.

Touché, and good call!

 

[Shannow]

 

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
So, in sum:

1. The engine had no prior issues.
2. You liked what you read on the label.
3. The only perceived improvement is in noise level, which is basically the only thing more subject to the placebo effect than the butt dyno.
4. You're not even attempting to gather any evidence that would tell you whether the additive is having the claimed efffects.

Does this sound like a good basis on which to be pouring additives into a multi-thousand-dollar engine that you love?

This summation is interesting but it misses the point completely. The only two questions of interest are will there be any benefit from this product? And is there any risk or other downside?

Following your logic (which seems to be one group's mindthink on BITOG), we would all still have mechanical brakes. Years and years ago, my brother owned a Popular (cheap version of an Anglia) which had mechanical brakes. They worked okay. Properly adjusted mechanical brakes will stop a car just fine.

So, why bother to upgrade to hydraulic brakes? All they do is stop the car - and not necessarily in a shorter distance. You can lock the wheels with either system.

Or, why bother to upgrade to anti-lock brakes? American car companies, who only have the consumer's safety and best interests in mind, resisted ABS for a decade or more after they were introduced in Europe and Asia. Ford introduced ABS in Europe (and won numerous awards for their efforts) and still drug their heels for domestic vehicle applications. The clear position of the 'big 3' was that hydraulic brakes were perfectly adequate (as were mechanical brakes before them). So, why change? Why try something else?

I noticed this above:
Originally Posted By: dave1251
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Still waiting for evidence that the engine actually has a problem that the additive can fix...

+1

+2

+3.

That's really neat. Did you rehearse this? Or is it one person with 3 or 4 email accounts? Just curious?

 

[Nebroch]

It's understandable that many are sceptic about any additive, I would be too if I just hear about something. Snake oil is just more probable than a real deal.

 

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: Nebroch
It's understandable that many are sceptic about any additive, I would be too if I just hear about something. Snake oil is just more probable than a real deal.

Snake oil? Like the stuff Carroll Shelby uses in his Cobras?

MoS2 has been around a very long time. 60+ years or longer - much longer if you include aircraft use. It is a very popular industrial lubricant, but consumer applications are limited. My theory for this is "turns the oil black".

In a message above, I mentioned Molykote from VW (Dow Corning/Alpha Molykote). I just had a friendly chat with Dave Kraycsir - Sr. Engineering Specialist at Dow Corning, who advises me that this Molykote product is available in the US under the name Dow Corning M Gear Oil Additive. Here's the spec sheet for Dow Corning M Gear Oil Additive

This product should be available through many industrial suppliers such as Motion Industries: ~$45 / quart delivered. That might seem pricey, but 1 quart should last a very long time, given the recommended dosages.

So you don't have to speak German to order Molykote from VW and you don't have to speak Portuguese to order Molykote from Brazil. The latter is not too bad - prices are reasonable in Brazil - but the Brazilian postal service is the pits.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: dave5358
That's really neat. Did you rehearse this? Or is it one person with 3 or 4 email accounts? Just curious?

You are puzzled why 4 different members basically want to know the answer to the same basic question that the OP should have asked himself in the first place?

If I was like the OP and just started dumping various concoctions into my engine just because I "heard good stuff about" it, I'd have no room left for the actual motor oil in there. Just because something may be good does not mean I should be using it unless I have evidence of an actual problem that needs fixing. I don't think OP has such evidence. So he's using a product and just hoping it causes no harm.

And all this while the maker of his engine specifically advises against using any oil additives.

 

[Nebroch]

Originally Posted By: dave5358

Snake oil? Like the stuff Carroll Shelby uses in his Cobras?

MoS2 has been around a very long time. 60+ years or longer - much longer if you include aircraft use. It is a very popular industrial lubricant, but consumer applications are limited. My theory for this is "turns the oil black".


I know I know, but snake oil is normal assumption and I don't blame anyone for it.

http://www.aijaa.com/img/b/00364/13444653.jpg
http://www.aijaa.com/img/b/00145/13414511.jpg

That's how Mos² attached in my use while driving thousands of miles.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: dave5358
That's really neat. Did you rehearse this? Or is it one person with 3 or 4 email accounts? Just curious?

You are puzzled why 4 different members basically want to know the answer to the same basic question that the OP should have asked himself in the first place?

If I was like the OP and just started dumping various concoctions into my engine just because I "heard good stuff about" it, I'd have no room left for the actual motor oil in there. Just because something may be good does not mean I should be using it unless I have evidence of an actual problem that needs fixing. I don't think OP has such evidence. So he's using a product and just hoping it causes no harm.

And all this while the maker of his engine specifically advises against using any oil additives.


Agreed.

 

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: dave5358
That's really neat. Did you rehearse this? Or is it one person with 3 or 4 email accounts? Just curious?

If I was like the OP and just started dumping various concoctions into my engine just because I "heard good stuff about" it, I'd have no room left for the actual motor oil in there.

If you was like the OP, you might start dumping various concoctions into your engine, until there was no room left for the actual motor oil.

But the OP's original statement and question was "Just changed my oil to my usual fill of Mobil1 0W-40 in the N54. Was thinking about adding some Lubro-Moly MOS2 to help reduce friction etc. Will it be OK in this turbocharged and direct injected engine?"

So, to answer your concern, adding Liqui-Moly MoS2 Anti friction will not use up all room in the engine, to the exclusion of actual motor oil.

To answer the OP's question, yes, MoS2 might be helpful. BMW recommends a 5w-30 oil, but like a lot of turbo Subaru owners, BMW turbo owners switch to Xw-40 - probably to cut down on oil consumption or maybe some hidden fear of the turbo trashing the oil. The OP might consider using MoS2, which will handle any extra oil demands the turbos might ever make. And as an added benefit, he could probably go back to the recommended 5w-30 weight oil. His engine would run as well or better, oil consumption should be reduced and internal engine friction should be reduced. That's what Liqui Moly says its MoS2 Anti Friction product will do. You don't dispute that, do you?

The OP didn't say if his vehicle was under warranty or not. The BMW bumper-to-bumper warranty is 4-yars or 50000 miles, so he might be right at the end of the warranty. If so, his choice is more difficult simply because of legal issues, not technical issues. But if he's out of warranty, it's time to start learning about the car.

Or, he could get in the line and press +1, +2, +3.

 

[wag123]

Since BMWs don't have dipsticks, nobody will ever know that he put the MoS2 in it

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: dave5358
But the OP's original statement and question was "Just changed my oil to my usual fill of Mobil1 0W-40 in the N54. Was thinking about adding some Lubro-Moly MOS2 to help reduce friction etc.

Again, where is the evidence that his engine has too much friction and that it's a problem?


Quote:

To answer the OP's question, yes, MoS2 might be helpful.

It's only helpful if you have some kind of a problem to begin with. I still don't see how running a BMW approved lubricant such as M1 0w-40 points to a problem that needs fixing with an aftermarket additive.


Quote:
BMW recommends a 5w-30 oil,

Nope. For his engine, BMW requires an oil meeting LL-01 spec, and both Xw-30 as well as Xw-40 oils are readily available that meet this spec. It's not like the 5w-30 grade is favored. It just so happens that that's what many of the dealerships use.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: wag123
Since BMWs don't have dipsticks, nobody will ever know that he put the MoS2 in it

My BMW had one.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: dave5358
Following your logic (which seems to be one group's mindthink on BITOG), we would all still have mechanical brakes. Years and years ago, my brother owned a Popular (cheap version of an Anglia) which had mechanical brakes. They worked okay. Properly adjusted mechanical brakes will stop a car just fine.

So, why bother to upgrade to hydraulic brakes? All they do is stop the car - and not necessarily in a shorter distance. You can lock the wheels with either system.

Or, why bother to upgrade to anti-lock brakes? American car companies, who only have the consumer's safety and best interests in mind, resisted ABS for a decade or more after they were introduced in Europe and Asia. Ford introduced ABS in Europe (and won numerous awards for their efforts) and still drug their heels for domestic vehicle applications. The clear position of the 'big 3' was that hydraulic brakes were perfectly adequate (as were mechanical brakes before them). So, why change? Why try something else?

This analogy reminds me of when conspiracy theorists compare themselves to Galileo...

I took issue with pouring MoS2 into an engine with zero apparent issues and to zero apparent benefit. If you think that's even vaguely comparable to wanting mechanical brakes over hydraulic assist with ABS, I don't see much scope for meaningful discussion.

 

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: dave5358
But the OP's original statement and question was "Just changed my oil to my usual fill of Mobil1 0W-40 in the N54. Was thinking about adding some Lubro-Moly MOS2 to help reduce friction etc.

Again, where is the evidence that his engine has too much friction and that it's a problem?

No one said it had too much friction. But, if you think of it, isn't any friction too much? If you could reduce friction in your engine, with no downside, would you do it? Or, would you say "the manufacturer intended for that friction to be there?"

You're simply defining away the question. If you genuinely feel BMW has engineered and specified approved materials so that their vehicle cannot be improved upon, then why are you even in this forum? Be glad BMW didn't equip their vehicles with mechanical brakes!

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: dave5358
To answer the OP's question, yes, MoS2 might be helpful.

It's only helpful if you have some kind of a problem to begin with. I still don't see how running a BMW approved lubricant such as M1 0w-40 points to a problem that needs fixing with an aftermarket additive.

Running approved oils does not point to a problem. No one even suggested that. But lack of a problem is not the same as saying the vehicle/engine cannot be improved, even in a small way. If MoS2 did nothing but reduce parasitic heat losses, that would be progress (unless you think that type of heat loss is a good thing)

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: dave5358
BMW recommends a 5w-30 oil,

Nope. For his engine, BMW requires an oil meeting LL-01 spec, and both Xw-30 as well as Xw-40 oils are readily available that meet this spec. It's not like the 5w-30 grade is favored. It just so happens that that's what many of the dealerships use.

If you had to chose between 5w-30 and 0w-40, your engine should be more efficient with 5w30. It takes more effort to churn 40 weight oil. As I noted, turbo Subaru owners frequently make this same choice for several reasons, even though Subaru specifies 5w-30. Efficiency wise, they would be better off with lighter oil. That only leaves the "several reasons" to deal with, and MoS2 does that job nicely, and then some.

 

[Trajan]

I ran German Castrol, M1 0w-40, and even M1 5w-40 TDT in mine.

It ran just fine with any of them. No need for Mos2.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: dave5358
If you had to chose between 5w-30 and 0w-40, your engine should be more efficient with 5w30. It takes more effort to churn 40 weight oil.

Not exactly. What impacts efficiency is HT/HS viscosity, and by definition, an oil has to have HT/HS of 3.5 cP or above to pass LL-01 spec, regardless if it's a 5w-30 or 0w-40. And hence, none of the BMW-approved 5w-30 oils are efficient to begin with. Good luck being able to find measurable differences in efficiency between a BMW-approved 5w-30 and 0w-40.

 

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
I ran German Castrol, M1 0w-40, and even M1 5w-40 TDT in mine. It ran just fine with any of them. No need for Mos2.

No one suggested it would not 'run just fine'. Mechanical brakes work well, too.

BTW, you did not have a turbo charger, did you?