Sounds Molakule you think Mos2 is useless?
Adding Mos2 in a BMW N54 engine with DI?
- Thread starter Alext
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted By: Alext
The engine was immediately quieter on idle which I thought was strange as was not expecting it to make such a difference so quickly. On driving I have not noticed any significant difference to smoothness or oil temperature (at least none that my eyes and ears can detect).
It should take 300-600 miles to coat around, there should be no instant effect I guess. What can you see from oil fill hole, any friction surfaces? If you can take a picture of it now and drive few thousand miles to check it again.
The engine was immediately quieter on idle which I thought was strange as was not expecting it to make such a difference so quickly. On driving I have not noticed any significant difference to smoothness or oil temperature (at least none that my eyes and ears can detect).
It should take 300-600 miles to coat around, there should be no instant effect I guess. What can you see from oil fill hole, any friction surfaces? If you can take a picture of it now and drive few thousand miles to check it again.
Originally Posted By: Trav
I didn't even bother look at mineral oils and i can see that it might be of some benefit to them. They do use it in one semi and not in any of their full synthetics. In their full synthetics they use a different moly called molygen not MoS2. Whats up with that?
Dunno. It might be organic moly - liquid stuff. Allegedly, that's what is used in Schaeffer's Supreme motor oil (which has a moly level per that is off the charts, per VOA)
Originally Posted By: Trav
Don't misunderstand me i am not calling it snake oil because it definitely isn't. I just think its an old school additive that worked well with the oils of yesteryear and has no place in a fully formulated modern oil especially a full synthetic.
I'm not so sure about that. All you can say for sure is that major oil companies are not using MoSw at this moment. But several factors have changed. Air cooled engines are not the rage. Oils (including synthetic oils) are much better. Organic moly is now available.
My best opinion/guess for non-use? MoS2 turns your oil black - that is simply a non-starter in the marketing department, and that trumps just about everything else. BTW, the 'turns your oil black' is a simple way to know if an oil or additive contains MoS2. Organic moly does not seem to do this.
In more civil days, I asked Molakule about the differences. As I recall, he opined that MoS2 builds up a substantial layer, really fills in around the rings (reduces oil usage), provides serious start-up and limp-home protection - and turns your oil black. Organic moly only forms a thin layer, perhaps one molecule layer thick. It does reduce friction, provides very limited start-up protection and no limp-home protection - and your oil stays an amber color. He also advises that a UOA or VOA cannot differentiate between the two flavors of moly. I guess it just depends on the level of gunfire in your neighborhood (or if you drive a Forester with potential pick-up tube issues ;-).
Originally Posted By: Trav
Course they is no competing with the butt dyno, the placebo effect or some slick advertizing like microscopic ball bearings in a can.
Yep that sounds good to me, i buy Mobil 1 0w40 and PU for my engines then i adulterate it with some solid lube the folK who make the stuff wont even use in their own top shelf oils but i allow them to convince me i need it.
I was born at night but not last night.
Strangely enough, almost all of the oil scam sellers are hawking PTFE-based magic... not MoS2. Maybe they should be selling MoSw ;-)
For industrial use, MoS2 - black color and all - is used everywhere and has been for decades. It is in sumps, transmissions, differentials, hydraulic systems, greases, you name it. Maybe you don't really need it in a civilian vehicle, but logically, it should be just as useful in the family car as it does in a 5-ton M939. But, the latter vehicle has no OCI - they just do a UOA and keep going - sometimes for 100,000 miles or more.
There was a funny anecdote on BITOG many months ago. Some person was recalling that he once use ARCO Graphite Motor Oil in his car. His father was looking at the dipstick and remarked: "Why would you use this oil? It has already turned black!"
Here's my variant on that story: I had a brother who was 'into cars'. Whenever he got ready to sell one, he always changed the oil and put in non-detergent oil. Potential buyers would always check the dipstick and smile because the oil looked so clean.
I drive a Forester and I live in a war zone. That's two reasons to make mine MoS2 ;-)
I didn't even bother look at mineral oils and i can see that it might be of some benefit to them. They do use it in one semi and not in any of their full synthetics. In their full synthetics they use a different moly called molygen not MoS2. Whats up with that?
Dunno. It might be organic moly - liquid stuff. Allegedly, that's what is used in Schaeffer's Supreme motor oil (which has a moly level per that is off the charts, per VOA)
Originally Posted By: Trav
Don't misunderstand me i am not calling it snake oil because it definitely isn't. I just think its an old school additive that worked well with the oils of yesteryear and has no place in a fully formulated modern oil especially a full synthetic.
I'm not so sure about that. All you can say for sure is that major oil companies are not using MoSw at this moment. But several factors have changed. Air cooled engines are not the rage. Oils (including synthetic oils) are much better. Organic moly is now available.
My best opinion/guess for non-use? MoS2 turns your oil black - that is simply a non-starter in the marketing department, and that trumps just about everything else. BTW, the 'turns your oil black' is a simple way to know if an oil or additive contains MoS2. Organic moly does not seem to do this.
In more civil days, I asked Molakule about the differences. As I recall, he opined that MoS2 builds up a substantial layer, really fills in around the rings (reduces oil usage), provides serious start-up and limp-home protection - and turns your oil black. Organic moly only forms a thin layer, perhaps one molecule layer thick. It does reduce friction, provides very limited start-up protection and no limp-home protection - and your oil stays an amber color. He also advises that a UOA or VOA cannot differentiate between the two flavors of moly. I guess it just depends on the level of gunfire in your neighborhood (or if you drive a Forester with potential pick-up tube issues ;-).
Originally Posted By: Trav
Course they is no competing with the butt dyno, the placebo effect or some slick advertizing like microscopic ball bearings in a can.
Yep that sounds good to me, i buy Mobil 1 0w40 and PU for my engines then i adulterate it with some solid lube the folK who make the stuff wont even use in their own top shelf oils but i allow them to convince me i need it.
I was born at night but not last night.
Strangely enough, almost all of the oil scam sellers are hawking PTFE-based magic... not MoS2. Maybe they should be selling MoSw ;-)
For industrial use, MoS2 - black color and all - is used everywhere and has been for decades. It is in sumps, transmissions, differentials, hydraulic systems, greases, you name it. Maybe you don't really need it in a civilian vehicle, but logically, it should be just as useful in the family car as it does in a 5-ton M939. But, the latter vehicle has no OCI - they just do a UOA and keep going - sometimes for 100,000 miles or more.
There was a funny anecdote on BITOG many months ago. Some person was recalling that he once use ARCO Graphite Motor Oil in his car. His father was looking at the dipstick and remarked: "Why would you use this oil? It has already turned black!"
Here's my variant on that story: I had a brother who was 'into cars'. Whenever he got ready to sell one, he always changed the oil and put in non-detergent oil. Potential buyers would always check the dipstick and smile because the oil looked so clean.
I drive a Forester and I live in a war zone. That's two reasons to make mine MoS2 ;-)
I can't really see anything much through the filler hole. I'll see if there is any diff in oil temp in a few 100 kms. I hope it brings it down even very slightly. The N54 is one of the all-time great engines BMW made (3 years engine of the year award etc) so want to preserve it as much as I can and temps do get quite hot under there.
Last edited:
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
Sounds Molakule you think Mos2 is useless?
Moly is useful in formulated products.
MoS2 powders are good for high load grease applications.
Soluble MoDTP is good for formulated Gear oils.
Soluble MoDTC is a good friction modifier in formulated motor oils.
I don't think it is necessary to add extra moly, whatever form, since it is already contained in most formulated products.
In motors oils where moly is not present, other friction modifiers have been incorporated.
Sounds Molakule you think Mos2 is useless?
Moly is useful in formulated products.
MoS2 powders are good for high load grease applications.
Soluble MoDTP is good for formulated Gear oils.
Soluble MoDTC is a good friction modifier in formulated motor oils.
I don't think it is necessary to add extra moly, whatever form, since it is already contained in most formulated products.
In motors oils where moly is not present, other friction modifiers have been incorporated.
Molakule could the addition of extra moly regardless of type have some possibly negative interaction of the oils add pack?
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Trav
Molakule could the addition of extra moly regardless of type have some possibly negative interaction of the oils add pack?
In the research papers I have studied soluble Moly, MoDTC, has a synergistic effect with ZDDP in which the sulfur atoms are exchanged between MoDTC and ZDDP to provide extra measure of AW, FM and anti-oxidation capabilities.
But here is the issue: A Specific amount of ZDDP and a Specific amount of MoDTC can only affect this exchange. No more or no less of either compound gives rise to this synergy.
The specific amount of ZDDP and a Specific amount of MoDTC was first determined by simulation, then by testing, and finally by engine tests.
What that tells me is that an overdosing of either compound leads to a point of no return in which there is no longer an advantage verses increased cost.
Any time you increase the amount of free sulfur in a motor oil you run the risk of converting that free sulfur into sulfuric acid which increases the rate of base depletion (decrease in TBN).
Molakule could the addition of extra moly regardless of type have some possibly negative interaction of the oils add pack?
In the research papers I have studied soluble Moly, MoDTC, has a synergistic effect with ZDDP in which the sulfur atoms are exchanged between MoDTC and ZDDP to provide extra measure of AW, FM and anti-oxidation capabilities.
But here is the issue: A Specific amount of ZDDP and a Specific amount of MoDTC can only affect this exchange. No more or no less of either compound gives rise to this synergy.
The specific amount of ZDDP and a Specific amount of MoDTC was first determined by simulation, then by testing, and finally by engine tests.
What that tells me is that an overdosing of either compound leads to a point of no return in which there is no longer an advantage verses increased cost.
Any time you increase the amount of free sulfur in a motor oil you run the risk of converting that free sulfur into sulfuric acid which increases the rate of base depletion (decrease in TBN).
Last edited:
Thanks for that info Mola.
If i understand this correctly oil is a carefully formulated balancing act.
We were just discussing this today, we see fewer and fewer ridges in cylinders today. In fact many times we see the original cross hatch in the bores.
I'm no rocket scientist but that seems to indicate there is much less wear with modern oils than ever before.
If i understand this correctly oil is a carefully formulated balancing act.
We were just discussing this today, we see fewer and fewer ridges in cylinders today. In fact many times we see the original cross hatch in the bores.
I'm no rocket scientist but that seems to indicate there is much less wear with modern oils than ever before.
Originally Posted By: Trav
Thanks for that info Mola.
If i understand this correctly oil is a carefully formulated balancing act.
We were just discussing this today, we see fewer and fewer ridges in cylinders today. In fact many times we see the original cross hatch in the bores.
I'm no rocket scientist but that seems to indicate there is much less wear with modern oils than ever before.
At least among anti-wear additives, it appears as if you don't need to balance between zinc, boron, moly, and titanium to meet the specs you want to print on the bottle.
See http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3453749#Post3453749
Thanks for that info Mola.
If i understand this correctly oil is a carefully formulated balancing act.
We were just discussing this today, we see fewer and fewer ridges in cylinders today. In fact many times we see the original cross hatch in the bores.
I'm no rocket scientist but that seems to indicate there is much less wear with modern oils than ever before.
At least among anti-wear additives, it appears as if you don't need to balance between zinc, boron, moly, and titanium to meet the specs you want to print on the bottle.
See http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3453749#Post3453749
If any or all of those are in the blend then what does adding more of one or something completely different like MoS2 or Boron Nitride to the mix do?
The point is. With an oil like Mobil 1 0w40 that meets so many specs and is good enough for some of the best manufacturers in the world in their uber expensive high tech engines what gives anyone the idea that a can of xyz is going to improve it in any way.
Its a hard sell if you think about it.
The point is. With an oil like Mobil 1 0w40 that meets so many specs and is good enough for some of the best manufacturers in the world in their uber expensive high tech engines what gives anyone the idea that a can of xyz is going to improve it in any way.
Its a hard sell if you think about it.
Originally Posted By: Trav
If any or all of those are in the blend then what does adding more of one or something completely different like MoS2 or Boron Nitride to the mix do?
The point is. With an oil like Mobil 1 0w40 that meets so many specs and is good enough for some of the best manufacturers in the world in their uber expensive high tech engines what gives anyone the idea that a can of xyz is going to improve it in any way.
Its a hard sell if you think about it.
Exactly right. Thats why I started that other thread. Its really all about what specs you can print on your bottle to qualify the oil for use, like "this oil needs to be a dexos1" etc. So, if you were running an oil company, wouldn't you do it as cheaply and simply as possible?
As a side note to this, notice that the famous German Castrol Synteq 0w-30 contains very few elements! Yet it passes the toughest specs on the planet, many of the same ones M1 0w-40 passes.
If any or all of those are in the blend then what does adding more of one or something completely different like MoS2 or Boron Nitride to the mix do?
The point is. With an oil like Mobil 1 0w40 that meets so many specs and is good enough for some of the best manufacturers in the world in their uber expensive high tech engines what gives anyone the idea that a can of xyz is going to improve it in any way.
Its a hard sell if you think about it.
Exactly right. Thats why I started that other thread. Its really all about what specs you can print on your bottle to qualify the oil for use, like "this oil needs to be a dexos1" etc. So, if you were running an oil company, wouldn't you do it as cheaply and simply as possible?
As a side note to this, notice that the famous German Castrol Synteq 0w-30 contains very few elements! Yet it passes the toughest specs on the planet, many of the same ones M1 0w-40 passes.
I don't see your point. If the oil doesn't need a boat load of additives to meet the spec what good does adding a can of xyz do?
Do you really believe you can improve on the formulation at home with a bit of this that and the other? LOL
Do you really believe you can improve on the formulation at home with a bit of this that and the other? LOL
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: route66mike
Originally Posted By: Trav
Thanks for that info Mola.
If i understand this correctly oil is a carefully formulated balancing act.
We were just discussing this today, we see fewer and fewer ridges in cylinders today. In fact many times we see the original cross hatch in the bores.
I'm no rocket scientist but that seems to indicate there is much less wear with modern oils than ever before.
At least among anti-wear additives, it appears as if you don't need to balance between zinc, boron, moly, and titanium to meet the specs you want to print on the bottle.
See http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3453749#Post3453749
Not quite true.
You do need to balance between the additives. That is why so much testing is done in the lab and in real engines.
When a new PI package is being developed, testing will show what antagonistic effects and synergistic effects occur among the additives.
Originally Posted By: Trav
Thanks for that info Mola.
If i understand this correctly oil is a carefully formulated balancing act.
We were just discussing this today, we see fewer and fewer ridges in cylinders today. In fact many times we see the original cross hatch in the bores.
I'm no rocket scientist but that seems to indicate there is much less wear with modern oils than ever before.
At least among anti-wear additives, it appears as if you don't need to balance between zinc, boron, moly, and titanium to meet the specs you want to print on the bottle.
See http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3453749#Post3453749
Not quite true.
You do need to balance between the additives. That is why so much testing is done in the lab and in real engines.
When a new PI package is being developed, testing will show what antagonistic effects and synergistic effects occur among the additives.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Not quite true.
You do need to balance between the additives. That is why so much testing is done in the lab and in real engines.
When a new PI package is being developed, testing will show what antagonistic effects and synergistic effects occur among the additives.
I worded that badly. I meant to say a tribologist doesn't have to use ALL of zinc, boron, moly, and titanium anti-wear additives, they can AVOID trying to harmonize all those 4 by simply using zinc ONLY. .... I had been wondering why some oils pass the toughest specs and don't have to exploit the services of boron, titanium, and moly, they just go with zinc alone. Or so it appears on some VOAs.
Not quite true.
You do need to balance between the additives. That is why so much testing is done in the lab and in real engines.
When a new PI package is being developed, testing will show what antagonistic effects and synergistic effects occur among the additives.
I worded that badly. I meant to say a tribologist doesn't have to use ALL of zinc, boron, moly, and titanium anti-wear additives, they can AVOID trying to harmonize all those 4 by simply using zinc ONLY. .... I had been wondering why some oils pass the toughest specs and don't have to exploit the services of boron, titanium, and moly, they just go with zinc alone. Or so it appears on some VOAs.
As in, have you ever heard a chemist-tribologist say "Man, we had to use all our anti-wear weapons: boron, titanium, moly, and zinc compounds to meet that tough spec! Whew! We couldn't have done it with zinc alone."
We know some oils only use zinc.
We know some oils only use zinc.
FWIW, I got this from carbibles.com:
Quote from a 24-year man at Ford who worked with oil:
"Additives are blended at the proper rate, heat and in the proper proportions by the manufactures of their particular product. Crude supplies are not all the same quality and the additives have to be adjusted for the quality of the base stock being used by each particular company, per batch. Dumping your own personal stuff will more than likely be way inferior to what the oil manufacturer uses. The chemicals will normally differ from the manufacturers blend, and can cancel each other out to the point where there will be no anti-wear properties left in the product. (This is one reason it's not wise to mix oils from different manufacturers together). Changing the oil from say Mobil to Shell and then to Pennzoil will have a negative effect on your engine from conflicting chemicals. Buy an oil that you may like and STICK TO THAT COMPANY'S product.
What you may get away with when using Shell may cause instant havoc with Valvoline."
Quote from a 24-year man at Ford who worked with oil:
"Additives are blended at the proper rate, heat and in the proper proportions by the manufactures of their particular product. Crude supplies are not all the same quality and the additives have to be adjusted for the quality of the base stock being used by each particular company, per batch. Dumping your own personal stuff will more than likely be way inferior to what the oil manufacturer uses. The chemicals will normally differ from the manufacturers blend, and can cancel each other out to the point where there will be no anti-wear properties left in the product. (This is one reason it's not wise to mix oils from different manufacturers together). Changing the oil from say Mobil to Shell and then to Pennzoil will have a negative effect on your engine from conflicting chemicals. Buy an oil that you may like and STICK TO THAT COMPANY'S product.
What you may get away with when using Shell may cause instant havoc with Valvoline."
Originally Posted By: route66mike
At least among anti-wear additives, it appears as if you don't need to balance between zinc, boron, moly, and titanium to meet the specs you want to print on the bottle.
See http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3453749#Post3453749
In addition to what Mola said, this would be a non-sequitur even if it were true. Trav's point was that the WHOLE OIL needs to be formulated in a balanced way, not just certain of the additives.
At least among anti-wear additives, it appears as if you don't need to balance between zinc, boron, moly, and titanium to meet the specs you want to print on the bottle.
See http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3453749#Post3453749
In addition to what Mola said, this would be a non-sequitur even if it were true. Trav's point was that the WHOLE OIL needs to be formulated in a balanced way, not just certain of the additives.
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Mystic
If MoS2 is raining out of the oil when the oil sits for a long time in an unused car I would not use the stuff. Thank you Trav for your usual quality observations. It is so nice having a professional mechanic at this website. Somebody who can bring order and sanity.
I provided a derivation based upon real particle science analysis to determing fallout times. You can find it here on BITOG.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2407575
If MoS2 is raining out of the oil when the oil sits for a long time in an unused car I would not use the stuff. Thank you Trav for your usual quality observations. It is so nice having a professional mechanic at this website. Somebody who can bring order and sanity.
I provided a derivation based upon real particle science analysis to determing fallout times. You can find it here on BITOG.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2407575
Thanks a lot for that JHZR2. I did not realize that the moly was raining out of the oil in that product. I never believed in that version of moly as compared to what the oil companies did with moly in motor oil. So I will not use that product.
By the way, I really feel the MMO post needs to be locked up. There has been too much conflict demonstrated by members towards each other and towards a new member.
By the way, I really feel the MMO post needs to be locked up. There has been too much conflict demonstrated by members towards each other and towards a new member.
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Mystic
If MoS2 is raining out of the oil when the oil sits for a long time in an unused car I would not use the stuff. Thank you Trav for your usual quality observations. It is so nice having a professional mechanic at this website. Somebody who can bring order and sanity.
I provided a derivation based upon real particle science analysis to determing fallout times. You can find it here on BITOG.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2407575
A very good read.
Also notice what Ed Kolin said about MoS2 suspended powders verses the soluble moly.
Originally Posted By: Mystic
If MoS2 is raining out of the oil when the oil sits for a long time in an unused car I would not use the stuff. Thank you Trav for your usual quality observations. It is so nice having a professional mechanic at this website. Somebody who can bring order and sanity.
I provided a derivation based upon real particle science analysis to determing fallout times. You can find it here on BITOG.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2407575
A very good read.
Also notice what Ed Kolin said about MoS2 suspended powders verses the soluble moly.
- Status
