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#3453871 - 08/12/14 06:49 PM Re: Failed CA emission - high NO [Re: JHZR2]
Jarlaxle Offline


Registered: 02/02/12
Posts: 4211
Loc: New England
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Chris142
it may be a bad cat. especially an aftermarked cat


Agreed. My 318i doesnt even have EGR. Failed NOx once, replaced it with a Magnaflow, barely passed. Replaced it with an OEM one, and passed with flying colors...

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/915639

ONLY EVER BUY OEM if you plan on doing anything besides dumping the car.

I learned that at my own expense. The aftermarket cat was barely good enough to improve numbers compared to my OE cat which was not converting NOX. New OE, NOx was at 7. All the other measured items had substantial improvements percentage wise but nowhere near the swing in number values.


My Cherokee passed two tests with a cheap part-store cat (Walker, I think) without a problem. And note: the OP's car PASSED twice with the aftermarket cat in place.
_________________________
1979 Coupe de Ville, 542 stroker, parked for winter
1995 Dakota, 5.2, ProLine 5W-30, ProLine
2012 Suzuki AN400A, M1 10W-40, Caltric, parked for winter

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#3453878 - 08/12/14 06:53 PM Re: Failed CA emission - high NO [Re: Bluestream]
Merkava_4 Online   content


Registered: 01/30/07
Posts: 9591
Loc: Clovis, CA
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Higher than normal NOX emissions may be caused by:
-an overheated engine
-Lean air/fuel mixtures
-Vacuum leaks
-over advanced ignition timing
-Defective EGR system


How does the EGR cause a lean condition; is it caused by the EGR valve being stuck open, or closed?

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#3453882 - 08/12/14 06:55 PM Re: Failed CA emission - high NO [Re: InvalidUserID]
Chris142 Offline


Registered: 06/05/03
Posts: 11629
Loc: apple valley, ca
part of the smog test is a test of the egr. if the smog guy did his job and did the state mandated test and passed the egr then the egr system should be fine.
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#3453889 - 08/12/14 07:00 PM Re: Failed CA emission - high NO [Re: Chris142]
InvalidUserID Offline


Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 630
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: Chris142
part of the smog test is a test of the egr. if the smog guy did his job and did the state mandated test and passed the egr then the egr system should be fine.


I looked through my past smog tests, they all only show "VISUAL EGR" as a PASS and an N/A to "FUNCTIONAL EGR". It looks like they just check to make sure it's physically there.
_________________________
My Cars aka 'ol reliables:
- '96 Camaro 3800 II
- '97 4.0 Grand Cherokee
- '99 Civic EX

Others I service:
- '01 Mustang, '04 Accord V6, and '93 Saturn SL2

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#3453956 - 08/12/14 08:01 PM Re: Failed CA emission - high NO [Re: Merkava_4]
Gokhan Offline


Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 1601
Loc: Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
Higher than normal NOX emissions may be caused by:
-an overheated engine
-Lean air/fuel mixtures
-Vacuum leaks
-over advanced ignition timing
-Defective EGR system

How does the EGR cause a lean condition; is it caused by the EGR valve being stuck open, or closed?

EGR valve doesn't cause lean conditions. It decreases the combustion temperature by recirculating the exhaust gas into the combustion chamber. Decreasing the combustion temperature decreases the NO_x formation, as high combustion temperatures increase the NO_x formation.

Lean conditions (excess oxygen), unrelated to EGR but related to vacuum leaks or fuel-system or emission-component (such as O_2 feedback system) problems, also increase the NO_x, as NO_x is formed by oxygen reacting with nitrogen.

OP might have a carbon-blocked EGR valve or some fuel- or emission-system problems as I mentioned. I had a fully carbon-blocked EGR valve once. The stuff was really, really hard, but I was able to fully clean it with a flat screwdriver (used as a pick) and brake-cleaner solvent.
_________________________
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Toyota 90915-YZZF2 filter, 90430-12031 drain gasket

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#3453977 - 08/12/14 08:22 PM Re: Failed CA emission - high NO [Re: InvalidUserID]
artificialist Offline


Registered: 09/23/07
Posts: 6953
Loc: Florida
OBDII cars are supposed to measure EGR flow, show a check engine light, and set a code.

Unfortunately, the system isn't perfect.

The 3800 has a steel tube between an exhaust manifold and the EGR valve. It can easily crack, so feel for gas leaks from that steel tube. Often when you replace the intake gaskets, it disturbs the EGR tube.
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#3454501 - 08/13/14 01:43 PM Re: Failed CA emission - high NO [Re: Jarlaxle]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 34036
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Chris142
it may be a bad cat. especially an aftermarked cat


Agreed. My 318i doesnt even have EGR. Failed NOx once, replaced it with a Magnaflow, barely passed. Replaced it with an OEM one, and passed with flying colors...

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/915639

ONLY EVER BUY OEM if you plan on doing anything besides dumping the car.

I learned that at my own expense. The aftermarket cat was barely good enough to improve numbers compared to my OE cat which was not converting NOX. New OE, NOx was at 7. All the other measured items had substantial improvements percentage wise but nowhere near the swing in number values.


My Cherokee passed two tests with a cheap part-store cat (Walker, I think) without a problem. And note: the OP's car PASSED twice with the aftermarket cat in place.


Wonderful. Dyno tests or just idle sniffers? Make sure youre talking apples to apples and posting numbers before drawing conclusions. My car passed with one of these too. Two years later, not so much. OE converter immediately took it from thousands to single digits, simple as that.

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#3454728 - 08/13/14 06:16 PM Re: Failed CA emission - high NO [Re: Jarlaxle]
Kruse Offline


Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 3096
Loc: Kansas
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle

My Cherokee passed two tests with a cheap part-store cat (Walker, I think) without a problem. And note: the OP's car PASSED twice with the aftermarket cat in place.


There are several brands of "cheapie" cats that cannot be installed in several states, for good reasons. A browse through the RockAuto site shows which ones are not for sale in these states. While it is true they may initially pass the test, they usually fail early. Unless it's a beater, a cheap cat can be a waste of money.

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#3454743 - 08/13/14 06:36 PM Re: Failed CA emission - high NO [Re: JHZR2]
Jarlaxle Offline


Registered: 02/02/12
Posts: 4211
Loc: New England
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Chris142
it may be a bad cat. especially an aftermarked cat


Agreed. My 318i doesnt even have EGR. Failed NOx once, replaced it with a Magnaflow, barely passed. Replaced it with an OEM one, and passed with flying colors...

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/915639

ONLY EVER BUY OEM if you plan on doing anything besides dumping the car.

I learned that at my own expense. The aftermarket cat was barely good enough to improve numbers compared to my OE cat which was not converting NOX. New OE, NOx was at 7. All the other measured items had substantial improvements percentage wise but nowhere near the swing in number values.


My Cherokee passed two tests with a cheap part-store cat (Walker, I think) without a problem. And note: the OP's car PASSED twice with the aftermarket cat in place.


Wonderful. Dyno tests or just idle sniffers? Make sure youre talking apples to apples and posting numbers before drawing conclusions. My car passed with one of these too. Two years later, not so much. OE converter immediately took it from thousands to single digits, simple as that.


IM-240 roller test (tougher than the OP's 2-speed test), passed easily both times. About 65,000 on the cat the second time. Considering the one I had lists for about $100 and an OE cat could run $500+ (if it hasn't gone NS1), it's probably cheaper to use the cheap one even if I DID have to replace it every 2 years.

My Caddy has over 100K on its catalysts...passed its last emission test (also IM-240) last year, about 10% the allowable emissions. (Not bad for 542ci and 3x the factory power...)
_________________________
1979 Coupe de Ville, 542 stroker, parked for winter
1995 Dakota, 5.2, ProLine 5W-30, ProLine
2012 Suzuki AN400A, M1 10W-40, Caltric, parked for winter

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#3454746 - 08/13/14 06:38 PM Re: Failed CA emission - high NO [Re: Kruse]
Jarlaxle Offline


Registered: 02/02/12
Posts: 4211
Loc: New England
Originally Posted By: Kruse
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle

My Cherokee passed two tests with a cheap part-store cat (Walker, I think) without a problem. And note: the OP's car PASSED twice with the aftermarket cat in place.


There are several brands of "cheapie" cats that cannot be installed in several states, for good reasons. A browse through the RockAuto site shows which ones are not for sale in these states. While it is true they may initially pass the test, they usually fail early. Unless it's a beater, a cheap cat can be a waste of money.


Yes: the manufacturer did not jump through the hoops and spend the money to satisfy CARB, no more & no less. I am very happy I do not have to deal with that idiocy. No, I am NOT choking my Caddy with a dreadful pellet converter to satisfy a bureaucrat!
_________________________
1979 Coupe de Ville, 542 stroker, parked for winter
1995 Dakota, 5.2, ProLine 5W-30, ProLine
2012 Suzuki AN400A, M1 10W-40, Caltric, parked for winter

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#3454989 - 08/14/14 07:13 AM Re: Failed CA emission - high NO [Re: Jarlaxle]
Kruse Offline


Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 3096
Loc: Kansas
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle

No, I am NOT choking my Caddy with a dreadful pellet converter to satisfy a bureaucrat!


I guess I haven't seen a pelleted cat since since about 1980 on a GM product. I have an honest question here. Who still makes a pelleted cat?

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#3455183 - 08/14/14 11:20 AM Re: Failed CA emission - high NO [Re: InvalidUserID]
InvalidUserID Offline


Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 630
Loc: Bay Area, CA
I keep hearing about cheap aftermarket cats however given that California is super strict about them, wouldn't a cat that is OBD II/CA CARB legal be considered quality?

The cat currently on now is CA-legal CARB certified/approved.
_________________________
My Cars aka 'ol reliables:
- '96 Camaro 3800 II
- '97 4.0 Grand Cherokee
- '99 Civic EX

Others I service:
- '01 Mustang, '04 Accord V6, and '93 Saturn SL2

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#3455401 - 08/14/14 02:44 PM Re: Failed CA emission - high NO [Re: InvalidUserID]
Chris142 Offline


Registered: 06/05/03
Posts: 11629
Loc: apple valley, ca
the carb approved cat flows just as well as the gofast cat. the carb one has more minerals in it so its cleaner and longer lasting
_________________________
02 Wrangler qsgb 530
87 F250 Diesel proline 1540
04 Tahoe super-s 530
Z400 maxima 2050
KLR250 Maxima 1040
Polaris Trailblazer delo 5w40

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#3455657 - 08/14/14 06:09 PM Re: Failed CA emission - high NO [Re: Kruse]
Jarlaxle Offline


Registered: 02/02/12
Posts: 4211
Loc: New England
Originally Posted By: Kruse
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle

No, I am NOT choking my Caddy with a dreadful pellet converter to satisfy a bureaucrat!


I guess I haven't seen a pelleted cat since since about 1980 on a GM product. I have an honest question here. Who still makes a pelleted cat?


I have seen them on GM trucks as late as 1995. The OE cat on my CDV would be a pellet type.
_________________________
1979 Coupe de Ville, 542 stroker, parked for winter
1995 Dakota, 5.2, ProLine 5W-30, ProLine
2012 Suzuki AN400A, M1 10W-40, Caltric, parked for winter

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#3455690 - 08/14/14 06:44 PM Re: Failed CA emission - high NO [Re: InvalidUserID]
asand1 Online   content


Registered: 12/16/12
Posts: 849
Loc: Oregon coast
"High flow" cat is a misnomer. Pellet cats are a thing of the past. Buy any quality "honeycomb" replacement cat, and it will outflow any OE pellet cat PERIOD.

Quote:
The cat currently on now is CA-legal CARB certified/approved.
Only long enough for one or two tests, then it stops working. "High flow" cats are designed to pass the initial test and then burn out becoming a straight pipe.



Edited by asand1 (08/14/14 06:47 PM)
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