Recent Topics
Tire size variations
by GerGa
11/23/14 05:04 PM
Good video on Hit and Miss engines
by GreeCguy
11/23/14 05:03 PM
Injectors question
by chrisri
11/23/14 04:30 PM
Tell me about 07 Subaru Tribecas
by ls1mike
11/23/14 04:19 PM
V-8/chain saw
by CourierDriver
11/23/14 04:17 PM
5200 miles and pp smelled like fuel
by ram_man
11/23/14 04:07 PM
5.3L LM7 Lifter Tick Solution
by Hemi_Time
11/23/14 03:00 PM
What oil to use 13' Ford Explorer?
by dothedrew1202
11/23/14 02:51 PM
Mower blade - sharpen or replace?
by JHZR2
11/23/14 02:48 PM
Girl buzzed by me in the Costco lot
by oilboy123
11/23/14 02:16 PM
Straight Talk Wireless @ Walmart
by Milkman
11/23/14 02:00 PM
Oil Consumption..Trying Some Pennzoil HM
by Warstud
11/23/14 01:49 PM
Newest Members
kinder, SamBruin7, splatt, Lars65inc, dothedrew1202
51984 Registered Users
Who's Online
109 registered (2KBMW, 147_Grain, andyd, 97f150, afree, 01_celica_gt, 11 invisible), 1658 Guests and 156 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
51984 Members
66 Forums
222532 Topics
3522067 Posts

Max Online: 2862 @ 07/07/14 03:10 PM
Donate to BITOG
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#3453682 - 08/12/14 03:55 PM Failed CA emission - high NO
InvalidUserID Offline


Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 630
Loc: Bay Area, CA
My '96 3.8L Camaro failed it's first California emission test. It's gotten near the maximum allowed before but that was a HC issue which wasn't an issue this time. This time it failed due to high NO numbers.



I don't have any CEL or any rotten smells coming from the car. Mods are an intake, headers, high-flow cat and exhaust system but I've had all those the past 2-3 checks and haven't seen numbers like this. The NO numbers were about half in the two previous emission checks.

Where to start? Plugs, wires, fuel filter, O2 sensors, etc are all under 2 years and less than 12k old. Cooling system just drained/refilled. The EGR valve, as I understand, might be a culprit and it's probably near 8 years old and 80k on it though again, no CEL.

What else would contribute to a doubling NO test count?
_________________________
My Cars aka 'ol reliables:
- '96 Camaro 3800 II
- '97 4.0 Grand Cherokee
- '99 Civic EX

Others I service:
- '01 Mustang, '04 Accord V6, and '93 Saturn SL2

Top
#3453687 - 08/12/14 04:00 PM Re: Failed CA emission - high NO [Re: InvalidUserID]
eljefino Online   content


Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 24383
Loc: ME
EGR likes backpressure. Root out the passages. Cool the engine off... rad flush.


Edited by eljefino (08/12/14 04:06 PM)

Top
#3453690 - 08/12/14 04:06 PM Re: Failed CA emission - high NO [Re: InvalidUserID]
Chris142 Offline


Registered: 06/05/03
Posts: 11596
Loc: apple valley, ca
it may be a bad cat. especially an aftermarked cat
_________________________
02 Wrangler qsgb 530
87 F250 Diesel proline 1540
04 Tahoe super-s 530
Z400 maxima 2050
KLR250 Maxima 1040
Polaris Trailblazer delo 5w40

Top
#3453706 - 08/12/14 04:19 PM Re: Failed CA emission - high NO [Re: InvalidUserID]
InvalidUserID Offline


Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 630
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Found info on the cat. Carsound cat, installed in '08, approx. 20k on it.
_________________________
My Cars aka 'ol reliables:
- '96 Camaro 3800 II
- '97 4.0 Grand Cherokee
- '99 Civic EX

Others I service:
- '01 Mustang, '04 Accord V6, and '93 Saturn SL2

Top
#3453710 - 08/12/14 04:22 PM Re: Failed CA emission - high NO [Re: Chris142]
Bladecutter Offline


Registered: 02/21/11
Posts: 892
Loc: Arvada, CO
The entire EGR system should be inspected.
Also, how hot was your car before the test?
This is important for NOx.

If the EGR system isn't plugged or have a bad component, then you will need a new convertor.

BC.
_________________________
2014 Mazda CX-5 Touring (Soul Red)
2007 Ducati 848
1988 Honda Hawk GT

Top
#3453711 - 08/12/14 04:26 PM Re: Failed CA emission - high NO [Re: InvalidUserID]
paulo57509 Offline


Registered: 07/13/03
Posts: 1831
Loc: Tracy, CA
Typical and common things to consider:

Vacuum leaks, lean mixture, over advanced timing, in-operative EGR valve, plugged or partially plugged EGR passages, aftermarket non-CARB converter.

I'd look at the EGR system first.

I'd put a lean mixture down on the list of things to look at. You do have excess O2 but I don't think it's enough to affect the NOx readings.

If you have your previous year test results, it might help to compare the measured numbers. Perhaps there's a trend that might point you in the right direction.

I'd throw in the time table of when you made the engine mods for comparison purposes as well.


Edited by paulo57509 (08/12/14 04:27 PM)
_________________________
1987 Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z 5.0L
1987 Acura Legend L Coupe 2.7L (5-Speed)
1992 Lumina Euro Coupe 3.1L
1998 Lexus LS400
2003 GMC Safari

Top
#3453712 - 08/12/14 04:27 PM Re: Failed CA emission - high NO [Re: Bladecutter]
InvalidUserID Offline


Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 630
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: Bladecutter
The entire EGR system should be inspected.
Also, how hot was your car before the test?
This is important for NOx.

If the EGR system isn't plugged or have a bad component, then you will need a new convertor.

BC.


Should have added that info about temperature.

I had driven the car on the highway about 30 miles to the testing shop. It was shut off for approx. 5 minutes before they put it on the machine.

Is it likely the EGR valve or cat?
_________________________
My Cars aka 'ol reliables:
- '96 Camaro 3800 II
- '97 4.0 Grand Cherokee
- '99 Civic EX

Others I service:
- '01 Mustang, '04 Accord V6, and '93 Saturn SL2

Top
#3453723 - 08/12/14 04:40 PM Re: Failed CA emission - high NO [Re: paulo57509]
InvalidUserID Offline


Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 630
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: paulo57509
Typical and common things to consider:

Vacuum leaks, lean mixture, over advanced timing, in-operative EGR valve, plugged or partially plugged EGR passages, aftermarket non-CARB converter.

I'd look at the EGR system first.

I'd put a lean mixture down on the list of things to look at. You do have excess O2 but I don't think it's enough to affect the NOx readings.

If you have your previous year test results, it might help to compare the measured numbers. Perhaps there's a trend that might point you in the right direction.

I'd throw in the time table of when you made the engine mods for comparison purposes as well.


Engine mods were in '06 so I've had three passing emission tests since then.

Dug up the last three emission tests, NO is really the only thing that has consistently been high.

2008: 15mph measure was 394, max is 424. 25 mph measure was 138, max is 711.
2010: 15mph measure was 209, max is 424. 25 mph measure was 312, max is 711.
2012: 15mph measure was 159, max is 424. 25 mph measure was 248, max is 711.

Since it's such a rarely driven vehicle, I haven't had to change much on it due to mileage.

Cat is CA legal, made sure that part was kosher before I purchased it.
_________________________
My Cars aka 'ol reliables:
- '96 Camaro 3800 II
- '97 4.0 Grand Cherokee
- '99 Civic EX

Others I service:
- '01 Mustang, '04 Accord V6, and '93 Saturn SL2

Top
#3453750 - 08/12/14 05:04 PM Re: Failed CA emission - high NO [Re: InvalidUserID]
Bluestream Offline


Registered: 09/13/03
Posts: 4044
Loc: Waterloo, ON
Higher than normal NOX emissions may be caused by:
-an overheated engine
-Lean air/fuel mixtures
-Vacuum leaks
-over advanced ignition timing
-Defective EGR system
_________________________
2000 Cavalier 2.2 A4
2000 VW Beetle 1.8T M5
2000 Ford Explorer 4.0 4X4
1991 BMW 735iL
"A fool and his money are soon parted" - Thomas Tusser

Top
#3453761 - 08/12/14 05:14 PM Re: Failed CA emission - high NO [Re: InvalidUserID]
EricF Offline


Registered: 07/14/09
Posts: 1609
Loc: SF Bay Area
The EGR is the first place to look at.
Probably just needs a very good cleaning, not just the valve, but all the ports, hoses and lines. hose them with carb spray.
A good run on the freeway would definetely help break that stuff up too.

I'd also do a seafoam de-carbonization and also a good freeway run.

I wouldn't be to concerned with the cat being faulty at this point. Your HC's are very low and CO is next to nothing.
This really is pointing to a plugged up EGR system.

Looking at
_________________________
1993 Ford Ranger XLT 4.0L 4x4 (240k) 5W-30 Synpower
2006 Saturn Relay-3 3.5L (85k) 5W-30 Synpower
2012 Ford Fusion SE 2.5L (39k) 5W20 M/C Semi Syn

Top
#3453785 - 08/12/14 05:37 PM Re: Failed CA emission - high NO [Re: InvalidUserID]
901Memphis Offline


Registered: 08/14/10
Posts: 6316
Loc: Northern Kentucky
CRC Guarenteed to pass? High PEA content, won't hurt!
_________________________
1999 Ford Taurus 146k (Vulcan v6) - M1 High Mileage 5w30 | Fram Ultra XG 3600
2002 Buick Century 105k - Peak 5w30 / Fram Ultra XG 3980 / Filter mag

Top
#3453797 - 08/12/14 05:52 PM Re: Failed CA emission - high NO [Re: Chris142]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 33976
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Chris142
it may be a bad cat. especially an aftermarked cat


Agreed. My 318i doesnt even have EGR. Failed NOx once, replaced it with a Magnaflow, barely passed. Replaced it with an OEM one, and passed with flying colors...

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/915639

ONLY EVER BUY OEM if you plan on doing anything besides dumping the car.

I learned that at my own expense. The aftermarket cat was barely good enough to improve numbers compared to my OE cat which was not converting NOX. New OE, NOx was at 7. All the other measured items had substantial improvements percentage wise but nowhere near the swing in number values.


Top
#3453814 - 08/12/14 06:04 PM Re: Failed CA emission - high NO [Re: InvalidUserID]
Skid Offline


Registered: 06/10/11
Posts: 201
Loc: USA - Southern California
I thought you generally didn't have to go on the rollers in California anymore for year 2000+ cars. Just visual inspection and a code check.

Anyway, pressure check your cooling system and check for leaks. A hot cylinder head will raise NOx.



Edited by Skid (08/12/14 06:05 PM)
Edit Reason: whoops... didn't realize it was a '96.

Top
#3453824 - 08/12/14 06:13 PM Re: Failed CA emission - high NO [Re: InvalidUserID]
Gokhan Offline


Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 1596
Loc: Los Angeles, California
Leaner mixtures result in higher NO_x and lower HC. Richer mixtures result in lower NO_x and higher HC. If you can adjust the mixture, do so.

Check the EGR system, which reduces the NO_x. See if it's working. If it's not working, it could be because of an EGR valve blocked with heavy carbon deposits or a torn EGR-vacuum-modulator diaphragm. Carbon deposits on the EGR valve can be removed using a flat screwdriver as a pick along with a brake-cleaner solvent.

In your car, the most likely candidate is the carbon deposits on the EGR valve. It also doesn't seem to have an EGR vacuum modulator but a solenoid. So, check if the solenoid is working as well.
_________________________
1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 257,000 M
Toyota (by ExxonMobil) SN/GF-5 0W-20 Synthetic
Toyota 90915-YZZF2 filter, 90430-12031 drain gasket

Top
#3453869 - 08/12/14 06:47 PM Re: Failed CA emission - high NO [Re: InvalidUserID]
InvalidUserID Offline


Registered: 08/23/04
Posts: 630
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Thanks for all the input everyone. I've never failed an emission test before (come close, but never failed) so it's something new to worry about.

I've had the car for the last 14 years and 140k miles and haven't cleaned any EGR related items, just replaced the valve many many years ago. Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever replaced any vacuum hoses/lines either.

And in case anyone else is a visual person like me, here are the previous three passing tests.



_________________________
My Cars aka 'ol reliables:
- '96 Camaro 3800 II
- '97 4.0 Grand Cherokee
- '99 Civic EX

Others I service:
- '01 Mustang, '04 Accord V6, and '93 Saturn SL2

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >