MMO, the real deal.

[doitmyself]

I thought this was an MMO thread. Silly me.

I have noticed that the moderators have really loosened their reins regarding S/R/P topics and in this case, allowing a topic to go "off topic" and get completely derailed.

People used to complain about over moderation and now we have the results of less moderation. How do you guys like this?

Oops, nevermind. I should start a new thread. Carry on discussing Zmax.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
Of course AES should be performed in high vacuum, but I don't recall any treatment on the details of if in the reducing conditions of the beam, if the carbon can change phase/form.


They mentioned the usual high vacuum conditions necessary for the start of any AES testing, but the major question is, did they maintain that high vacuum during the test? They never stated they continued to maintain the 7X1^-10 of torr vacuum. If they didn't, the game was already over.

The AES report was a sham and never would have passed the muster at the University level.

It was obviously intended as a "snow job" to impress the non-techs at the FTC.


Quote:
I thought this was an MMO thread. Silly me.


True, some people have problems staying on topic and focusing.

However, when misinformation about scientific principles are discussed, it may be necessary to provide some clarification.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
Dang. Nice catch!!


Your welcome.

Now back to MMO I see very little benefit in using this product in 2014. At the very least it is not refined oil in a bottle.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
Of course AES should be performed in high vacuum, but I don't recall any treatment on the details of if in the reducing conditions of the beam, if the carbon can change phase/form.


They mentioned the usual high vacuum conditions necessary for the start of any AES testing, but the major question is, did they maintain that high vacuum during the test? They never stated they continued to maintain the 7X1^-10 of torr vacuum. If they didn't, the game was already over.

The AES report was a sham and never would have passed the muster at the University level.

It was obviously intended as a "snow job" to impress the non-techs at the FTC.


Quote:
I thought this was an MMO thread. Silly me.


True, some people have problems staying on topic and focusing.

However, when misinformation about scientific principles are discussed, it may be necessary to provide some clarification.


Wow and just when I thought everything that could possibly have been said, including the name calling, was said, you come up with this...........This could take this thread to a new level and add several more pages. Carry on............

 

[Mystic]

The name calling and personal attacks are the worse. I immediately lose respect for somebody who has no valid arguments to support his position and so than he resorts to personal attacks on whoever he is arguing against.

I think there needs to be a rule at bobistheoilguy.com that a post should stay on topic. This post started out as a post where a guy talked about his positive experience using MMO. And somehow it turned into a post where people are engaging in an endless dispute about ZMax and talking about whether metals can be porous to some degree. I am not even going to waste my time finding out how this post became so twisted around. The discussions about metal porosity were pretty interesting however.

But this same thing happens in a lot of posts about MMO or Kreen. People who want to have a discussion about MMO in a post are not allowed to talk about MMO. A guy tries to talk about his experiences with MMO, Kreen, or some other product and his post is immediately hijacked by the obvious product promoters. In my opinion if somebody wants to promote some expensive product here they need to get in touch with the owner and pay to have their product advertised.

Nobody is going to be a paid promoter for MMO. I can buy MMO at my local Wal-Mart for $5.00.

I personally would like for the Oil Additives Section to be the place where people can have honest discussions about their experiences with various products.

Now I am not trying to attack anybody here and I think I am being fair and neutral. But if I was not interested in a product I would not go out of my way to defend that product in reply after reply after reply. And than tell people I do not even use the product I am defending. There is a serious disconnect there.

 

[Mystic]

I think another thing that needs to be said is that NOBODY here seemed to be an expert on the porosity of metals. When metal porosity started to be discussed it was necessary for people to try to do some research on it. I found the discussion about metal porosity to be pretty interesting myself.

I think it was Trav who found some of the most interesting information on metal porosity. Apparently limited porosity in some metals is at least being researched. And graphite may have some effect on the porosity of cast iron skillets. I found some information on that but Trav found more. I think I was the first to give the example of the cast iron skillet and I think demarpaint was the first to give the example of the bronze filter insert.

With the technology that exists today people can pretty much achieve whatever they want to achieve. If people want for a metal to have limited porosity for a given application they can achieve that.

There is nobody here who knows everything about everything. People tend to be highly skilled and have great knowledge in limited areas.

 

[rdalek]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
If somebody does not use a product, why are they so interested in it?


I'm interested in it for about the same reason dave5358 is. Zmax went through a FTC lawsuit and even the claim people here say is impossible survived the lawsuit. For me, to come through a lawsuit with a Govt agency and still be able to make that claim says a lot. While some wording of claims were changed, about the only thing missing is the percentages.

Originally Posted By: dave5358
BTW, I'm not defending Zmax. I could care less about the product, except as I noted above. I am certainly defending the efforts Zmax made to defend their product against what IMHO was an overreaching and mean-spirited FTC attack. And, what IMHO is a stupid and mean-spirited BITOG attack. It is amusing to me how few BITOG users can grasp the difference between the two.

Hey BITOG folks, Zmax made their case. Live with it.


My point as well. Zmax spent a lot of money defending its product and what they claim it does. That means something. If it didn't, Zmax wouldn't have spent so much money defending it.

Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: dave5358
. And... Zmax won.


Being compelled to make a million dollar restitution is not a victory for Oil-Chem.


But they only had to spend about 10% of that money. Remember, I called and asked about that. It seems a very tiny number of people had a problem with the product and the old claims. If you want to say it is anything different than that, you prove it. I took my time to call and all you do is post your opinion here.

You seem to forget again, Zmax won the fact it could still make the claims it does. One of which really crawls under your skin and a few others. You say it can't happen but Zmax was able to survive a lawsuit and still make that claim. Yes, they won the right to make those claims with even the FTC unable to prove any different. So far, not one person has stepped up to the plate to proven otherwise. As I said before, the only reason I can come up with that no one here will share their so called "facts" with the FTC is because they don't have any. I'm pretty sure filing a complaint with the FTC is free. Since a very few are so convinced, why not share that info and really make a difference? Oh, you can't otherwise you would have a very long time ago. After all, the best way to set the record straight with Zmax would be to force them to change their claims, which you know you can't so you don't or won't even try.

So, here we sit, Zmax still selling its product and still making that claim because the people with the so called "facts" just want to post here instead of really proving their point where it matters most. After all, Zmax proved theirs, where it counts most, in court and to the FTC.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
I think another thing that needs to be said is that NOBODY here seemed to be an expert on the porosity of metals. When metal porosity started to be discussed it was necessary for people to try to do some research on it. I found the discussion about metal porosity to be pretty interesting myself.

I think it was Trav who found some of the most interesting information on metal porosity. Apparently limited porosity in some metals is at least being researched. And graphite may have some effect on the porosity of cast iron skillets. I found some information on that but Trav found more. I think I was the first to give the example of the cast iron skillet and I think demarpaint was the first to give the example of the bronze filter insert.

With the technology that exists today people can pretty much achieve whatever they want to achieve. If people want for a metal to have limited porosity for a given application they can achieve that.

There is nobody here who knows everything about everything. People tend to be highly skilled and have great knowledge in limited areas.


There are five papers mentioned here for further study:

Controlled Porosity Metallurgy

Quote:
rdalek: You seem to forget again, Zmax won the fact it could still make the claims it does.


You made those droning, boring, vacuous claims over in that "other" thread.

This is an MMO thread. People are suggesting you stay on topic and try to focus on this topic.

 

[Stelth]

Okay, tell you what. I have a little Zmax. I put some in my transmission, because they say it will dissolve varnish, which may help harsh shifting. I think I'm ultimately going to have to replace the valve body. Zmax can't repair worn bores or pistons.

So. I have some rectangular cast-iron pipe. I ground off the surface rust and coating, and drilled a 1/4" hole in it about 1/4" deep. I put Zmax in the hole, and I'm going to go through some heating and cooling cycles like they suggest in the video. All I can do after that is look for visual evidence of any penetration into the metal. I am able to take pretty thick slices of the iron, and I intend to do that.

This won't be a published, peer-reviewed experiment under lab conditions. So, it won't satisfy everyone, but I'm really doing it to satisfy myself. This is the first time I've ever bought Zmax, and if I'm convinced that it's worthless, it will be the last.

I also drilled a shallow hole in a piece of 3/16" mild steel to see if it would penetrate the steel at all. I've heated it and let it cool a couple of times, and while it did travel across the surface during this time, so far I see no sign of absorption. I believe Maurice LaPera did use the word "absorb" in the paper published on the Zmax website.

Hopefully within a few days, I will have some results. I'll post them, but not in this thread.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Stelth
Okay, tell you what. I have a little Zmax. I put some in my transmission, because they say it will dissolve varnish, which may help harsh shifting. I think I'm ultimately going to have to replace the valve body. Zmax can't repair worn bores or pistons.

So. I have some rectangular cast-iron pipe. I ground off the surface rust and coating, and drilled a 1/4" hole in it about 1/4" deep. I put Zmax in the hole, and I'm going to go through some heating and cooling cycles like they suggest in the video. All I can do after that is look for visual evidence of any penetration into the metal. I am able to take pretty thick slices of the iron, and I intend to do that.

This won't be a published, peer-reviewed experiment under lab conditions. So, it won't satisfy everyone, but I'm really doing it to satisfy myself. This is the first time I've ever bought Zmax, and if I'm convinced that it's worthless, it will be the last.

I also drilled a shallow hole in a piece of 3/16" mild steel to see if it would penetrate the steel at all. I've heated it and let it cool a couple of times, and while it did travel across the surface during this time, so far I see no sign of absorption. I believe Maurice LaPera did use the word "absorb" in the paper published on the Zmax website.

Hopefully within a few days, I will have some results. I'll post them, but not in this thread.



I'd be very interested to see if there is any penetration into the metal itself and by virtue of slicing off strips it should be obvious if there is any absorbtion whatsoever.
If you aren't going to start a thread could you please pm me. I'll give you my email and if you don't mind please send me the pics you take.
It's a very simple yet telling experiment and even if not "lab quality" it's still a result which will prove or disprove the whole "soaks into metal" claim.
Which should shut up these guys who think just because zmax can make specific claims doesn't mean those claims affect an engine in any significant manner.
And from the wording zmax uses in their claims everything is based on zmax cleaning deposits which may lead to better efficiency and so on.
So it's apparently a good cleaner,yet so are many cheaper products out there.

 

[Mystic]

This is cool. Somebody actually willing to test a product. I think Bob would have been proud.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: doitmyself
I thought this was an MMO thread. Silly me.


It is. But Mystic wants to take it into an off topic product. And provoke an argument he can't win.

And the others think that repeating the same old "Zmax can claim..." line is going to make it true.

I can claim to make a headshot at 500yards with an no scope Mosin-Nagant. And it would be true because I can claim it.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: dave1251
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Dang. Nice catch!!


Your welcome.

Now back to MMO I see very little benefit in using this product in 2014. At the very least it is not refined oil in a bottle.


Certainly not with anything SM+. There certainly nothing to support the speculation that it outperforms modern oil's ability to clean.

MMO doesn't soak into metal. It certainly doesn't diffuse into metal. Not according to anything that isn't medieval age alchemy.

 

[dave1251]

I agree and I have used MMO it did nothing no MPG gains the engine is and was clean before MMO and only in alchemy does this substance soak into a metal. Which means I should continue my quest for the philosophers stone. I could use some gold and immortality.

 

[Trajan]

You'll hear comments like "Oil is blended to a price point." But so what? If, say, Mobil, thought that what is in MMO is of some benefit, they could easily incorporated it with little increased cost.

MMO's own website/message board says it's the same formula it was in 1923. I don't know if anyone has told them, but current oil formulation is light years ahead of what it was in 1923.

Technology doesn't stand still. Unless it's MMO.

 

[dave1251]

I believe most additive companies prey on the fact some people have an inherent need to control anything and everything they can. Putting a little of this in their crankcase replaced the urge to whiz on their property to show ownership.

 

[rdalek]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
MMO doesn't soak into metal. It certainly doesn't diffuse into metal. Not according to anything that isn't medieval age alchemy.


I don't think MMO claims to soak into metal either. If it does, I don't see it on my bottle.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
Stelth: So. I have some rectangular cast-iron pipe. I ground off the surface rust and coating, and drilled a 1/4" hole in it about 1/4" deep. I put Zmax in the hole, and I'm going to go through some heating and cooling cycles like they suggest in the video. All I can do after that is look for visual evidence of any penetration into the metal. I am able to take pretty thick slices of the iron, and I intend to do that.

This won't be a published, peer-reviewed experiment under lab conditions. So, it won't satisfy everyone, but I'm really doing it to satisfy myself. This is the first time I've ever bought Zmax, and if I'm convinced that it's worthless, it will be the last.

I also drilled a shallow hole in a piece of 3/16" mild steel to see if it would penetrate the steel at all. I've heated it and let it cool a couple of times, and while it did travel across the surface during this time, so far I see no sign of absorption. I believe Maurice LaPera did use the word "absorb" in the paper published on the Zmax website.


Can you borrow a X1000 mircroscope from someone close by?

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: dave1251
I believe most additive companies prey on the fact some people have an inherent need to control anything and everything they can. Putting a little of this in their crankcase replaced the urge to whiz on their property to show ownership.

http://www.ford-trucks.com/articles/snake-oil-is-that-additive-really-a-negative/


All of these products will strip sludge and deposits out and
clean up your engine, particularly if it is an older, abused one. The
problem is, unless you have some way of determining just how much is
needed to remove your deposits without going any further, such
solvents also can strip away the boundary lubrication layer provided
by your oil. Overuse of solvents is an easy trap to fall into, and
one which can promote harmful metal-to-metal contact within your
engine.

 

[dave1251]

Nice link.

"The Best of The Worst

Not all engine oil additives are as potentially harmful as some
of those we have described here. However, the best that can be said
of those that have not proved to be harmful is that they haven’t been
proved to offer any real benefits, either. In some cases, introducing
an additive with a compatible package of components to your oil in
the right proportion and at the right time can conceivably extend the
life of your oil. However, in every case we have studied it proves
out that it would actually have been cheaper to simply change the
engine oil instead.

In addition, recent new evidence has come to light that makes
using almost any additive a game of Russian Roulette. Since the
additive distributors do not list the ingredients contained within
their products, you never know for sure just what you are putting in
your engine."

Now here comes the theory I had earlier.

"The Psychological Placebo

You have to wonder, with the volume of evidence accumulating against
oil additives, why so many of us still buy them. That’s the
million-dollar question, and it’s just as difficult to answer as why
so many of us smoke cigarettes, drink hard liquor or engage in any
other number of questionable activities. We know they aren’t good for
us – but we go ahead and do them anyway.

Part of the answer may lie in what some psychiatrists call the
"psychological placebo effect." Simply put, that means that many of
us hunger for that peace of mind that comes with believing we have
purchased the absolute best or most protection we can possibly get.

Then again, perhaps it comes from an ancient, deep-seated need
we all seem to have to believe in magic. There has never been any
shortage of unscrupulous types ready to cash in on our willingness to
believe that there’s some magical mystery potion we can buy to help
us lose weight, grow hair, attract the opposite sex or make our
engines run longer and better. I doubt that there’s a one of us who
hasn’t fallen for one of these at least once in our lifetimes. We
just want it to be true so bad that we can’t help ourselves."